J'ever notice...

[Username]

You've probably noticied that as the fighting application of a martial art increases, its philisophical benefits decrease. I think thats a reasonable observation, maybe I'm crazy. Why do things have to be like this? At the far end of the spectrum you've got Tai Chi and such, which has no combat application (except for emotional management, buts thats digressing...), then on the other you've got those reality systems urging you to kill everyone and that mercy = death for you. Why does everything have to be this way? I can't learn to fight from a traditional martial art until I've studied it for years and years, and those reality systems...how do you trust something like that, that was created by some mysterious guy who's claiming to have taught self defense to all these prestigious government groups, half of which exist only in sci-fi? Its no small wonder why people are switching over to BJJ and kickboxing. To someone like me who is coming back to the martial arts after years of being away, its a real turn off. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[DLopez]

What do you mean, you "can't learn to fight from a traditional martial art until I've studied it for years and years"?

 

Your basic premise is biased, not to mention incorrect.

 

If you think taking BJJ and kickboxing for less than a year is going to make you any more of a good fighter than some thug you happen to run into by chance on the street, well, good luck. At least you'll have your confidence going for you, if not actual developed and refined fighting skills.

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but IMO, the only way to become skilled at fighting, whether on the street or in the ring, is to actually become experienced, and that simply takes time.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to try some other style than what you have already learned, but I think your expectations are unrealistic if you think there is a quick way to learn a fighting skill.

[longarm25]

I can't learn to fight from a traditional martial art until I've studied it for years and years, and those reality systems...how do you trust something like that, that was created by some mysterious guy who's claiming to have taught self defense to all these prestigious government groups, half of which exist only in sci-fi?

 

If you want a chance you had better pick something and train hard and often because the avg street thug trains to, what do you think they do in jails and prisons work out and fight.

 

I would not trust anything claiming to make you an instant hero.

[Username]

I meant no offense and you're certainly right "the only way to become skilled at fighting, whether on the street or in the ring, is to actually become experienced." So we agree that it takes time to learn a martial art. But thats really beside my point. I'm just trying to say that the black and white attitude (traditionalists vs. "reality fighting") is annoying as heck to someone considering getting involved in martial arts. I was just pointing out kickboxing and BJJ have a more "in the middle" position that people find more likeable. And yes, it still does take years to learn how to fight effectively. Sorry, , I kind of exaggerated to get my point across. And I certainly have nothing against traditionalists. I took Tang Soo do and enjoyed every minute of it, and loved my instructor. I just think that as martial arts people need to be careful about how they present tmemselves. Thats all.

[Sasori_Te]

Also, I wanted to pint out one more error that you made. Tai Chi has many fighting applications within it. Tai Chi Ch'uan translates to Grand Ultimate Fist or Grand Ultimate Boxing depending on who you ask to do the translating.

 

To be fair, there are many people that teach different forms of Tai Chi for health benefits. Some people teach these things after only having cursory training themselves. To be sure, I have met several people with a much deeper understanding if this art that do indeed know how to apply it's combat applications.

[delta1]

You've probably noticied that as the fighting application of a martial art increases, its philisophical benefits decrease.

 

No. In fact, just the opposite.

At the far end of the spectrum you've got Tai Chi and such, which has no combat application

 

Taiji is an excellent example for my point. Every move in Taiji, including the most insignificant appearing transitions, has an infinite number of extremely effective combat applications. Furthermore, without the martial aspects, you get less than half the spiritual or health bennifits from it. I think it is the same with the external arts as well, to varrying degrees. Even the 'do' styles break their katas down to get an understanding of the applications and meanings (bunkai).

then on the other you've got those reality systems urging you to kill everyone and that mercy = death for you.

 

I've worked some with reality/CQC systems, and I don't see them teaching that at all.

I can't learn to fight from a traditional martial art until I've studied it for years and years, and those reality systems...how do you trust something like that, that was created by some mysterious guy who's claiming to have taught self defense to all these prestigious government groups

 

Are you in the martial arts now, or just looking? How long were you in it before, and how long have you been away? The things you talk about here are common misconceptions about the martial arts. To be sure, there are a lot of charlatans out there teaching a lot of garbage. But there are many good systems and schools out there also. Best advice I can give you is to go to the 'Getting Started' section, post there with what your interests are- what you want out of the martial arts- and ask for advice. There is a good variety of systems, styles, and experience here. You will probably get so good advice there.

[shanemm]

I somewhat agree with Prospector. With about 1.5 years of judo and tkd experience I know that I have a very slight advantage over an untrained person. However, any jerk who lifts weights will have about my fighting ability for about the first year of training. Also, you have a much different mind set in the dojo than you do on the street not to mention much less time to react.

 

I don't think that you have the same fighting prowess at first as the untrained person, just not enough to make a differense. If you want to kick people's butts right away go box or something, don't expect to outclass anyone in a real fight within the first couple of years of true ma training(depending on how dedicated you are). Besides, most real ma preach non agression(i count real ma as those with a true philosiphy, not just "i'll teach you how to beat some one up..."). That's what seperates ma from just plain fighting, you can teach a horse to do an axe kick but it takes an uncommon person to learn why or when to kick and how to avoid kicking(and i don't meen punching ).

 

Lastly, I belive that all ma have combat potential but some take longer to get there, ie. tai chi compared to say TKD.

 

btw...longarm we all know what happens to thugs in prison

[gcav]

>>>>....However, any jerk who lifts weights will have about my fighting ability for about the first year of training.....

 

Why do you think this? When did "being big" equal "being able to fight"? This is a western concept that I have always wondered about. Just because someone is big doesn't mean that he can fight.

[longarm25]

btw...longarm we all know what happens to thugs in prison

WoW

[Shorinryu Sensei]

>>>>....However, any jerk who lifts weights will have about my fighting ability for about the first year of training.....

 

Why do you think this? When did "being big" equal "being able to fight"? This is a western concept that I have always wondered about. Just because someone is big doesn't mean that he can fight.

 

This is correct. One of my best friends is a body builder. He stands about 6'2"..weight I'm not sure of, but I'm guessing around 260 or so..and man, is he solid and strong! He's also a pretty good bar room brawler...or was when he was younger, and he and I have "played" around on a number of occasions. He has yet to get in on me to any extent that he could hurt me, and he comes at me really hard.

 

Over the years I've had boxers, wrestlers, weightlifters..you name it. If you have a viable, realistic martial art, I think you can effectively defend yourself in as little as 3-6 months...not years. Heck, just to improve your fighting ability, I'd guess that in 2 months you are 100% better at defending yourself than when you walked in my door as a rule, regardless of what you knew when you started.