October Quiz

[Shorinryu Sensei]

PAL......maybe I missed the point of your post, but what am I supposed to "pay more attention to" ?.....I do want to come up with a good quiz/poll for November, but what do you mean ?.....just curious....

 

I thin what he's referring to is the wording of the "quiz" questions so that they are more easily understood and less confusing.

 

That is of course...unless I'm confused by that question also?

 

It wouldn't be the first time!

[47MartialMan]

And, in all, there isn't "the answer". As said, IT depends on style, stance, and application. It maybe "his answer", but not "THE Answer".

 

The thread should have been on the many ways the knee(s) are bent for many reasons per style, stance, and application.

 

The question is "Why do you bend the supporting Knee? Not, why does he, the poster, bend the supporting knee. With that, when the word "you" is there, meaning directed to the reader, then he has his "own answer". Therefore it is HIS answer, the reader's and not someone that had posted the question's answer as "the answer".

[Killer Miller]

You just did refer to bending the knees in general by referring to "any 50/50 weight distributed stance." Also, any time that both knees are bent and both feet are on the ground they will both be supporting knees no matter what the weight distribution.

 

I don't see your reasoning here. Both legs in Kiba-dachi are equally supporting the weight. I think that's a pretty specific instance. It's also one of the few true 50/50 stances there are with the exception of ready position and free sparring position and maybe one or two other variations of these stances. And you guys are overlooking what the term "supporting" really means. 50/50 means to support equally. 60/40 stance means that the 60 and not the 40 becomes the supporting leg - it doesn't matter what style or type of stance you are doing. Same for a 70/30 stance or whatever...

This is a generalization and an assumption on your part. Not all styles do this the same way.

 

This is body mechanics that apply to all styles and it is definately not an assumption. Many Masters and Doctors have written on this subject. Perhaps a little home work might help? Different styles might do different things in terms of outside movements, but the inside movements and body mechanics are the same.

Again, this is a generalization on your part about the specifics of your style. Physically, you lower your center of balance when ever you bend your knees or physically somehow lower your body as a unit closer to the ground. You are getting stability of a stance confused with lowering your center here. By your last statement you are discounting many styles of martial arts due to the stances that they use. What about a cross-legged stance?

 

I never argued that your body wouldn't lower if you bent your knees - I think that's pretty obvious. I said that bending your knees are not the determining factor of lowering your center of gravity. Only length or width of a stance determines this factor. Are you trying to tell me that if you go for a low stance of some type that your legs are not spread apart significantly in some fashion or another? I find it very hard to believe that they're not...

 

- Killer -

[Sasori_Te]

I didn't say my style didn't do the majority of the things that you are talking about. Indeed a lot of the Okinawan and Japanese martial arts do. But I have seen Chinese styles that bend their knees much deeper than what you are talking about here. I've also seen Chinese systems that don't bend their knees as far as you are discussing here. I have studied physics too. While I'm not a mechanical engineer I'd like to think I have a good handle on the basics of structure and movement.

 

I'll admit that I wasn't paying close attention to what I was writing when I wrote about 50/50 stances. I was in a bit of a hurry and my meaning did not come across too well.

 

You need to admit that much of what you have said in this post is style specific to your particular style. It doesn't make what you say any less true. There many roads to the same destination. That's my wise, all-knowing answer. I'm practicing it. What do you think?

[Killer Miller]

What we need to keep in mind here throughout this discussion, is that that is right for you and the system that your practice, isn't necessarily right for all systems...as has been mentioned several tinmes before. For example, in the system that I practice, having your knee out over your big toe is correct in a side/parallel stance, but NOT in a front stance where one foot is in front of the other. Doing so puts your weight to far forward. This is OK if you're planning on lunging at a person, but isn't a good idea if you may want to go backwards or to the side.

 

What I'm discussing is not style specific. It's general body mechanics regardless of the style. If you are doing a different stance where the front leg is no longer the supporting leg, as you mention above, then the rear leg might momentarily become the supporting leg. Such as: Maybe quickly lifting your front foot resting it on the ball. Now the rear leg becomes the supporting leg of your weight - not the leg on the ball of your foot. The supporting leg does not have to always be constant in a posture for sparring or defense, the supporting leg can change many times in a few seconds. I think you are under the impression, like many are, that our style walks around like stiff robots or something. We can be quite light on our feet (just like any other style), and the supporting leg changes constantly. But without at least one leg supporting, you have no balance or stability in your stance or action.

OK...so..in your system, you widen your stance...but don't bend your knees? You stand there straight legged? It sounds like "knee fodder" to me....meaning if you fight me on the street with straight legs..no matter how far apart they are..I'll take your knees out first. You must use really wide stances...correct? We don't. Short, more natural stances with the knees ALWAYS bent.

 

So are you saying that in your system you accomplish a significantly lowered stance (lower center of gravity) without lengthing or widening your stance? I'd surely like to see a realistic example of that happening. And I never stated that we don't bend the knees. I stated that it is not the primary factor of a lower center of gravity. Bending the knees obviously will lower your center a little, but not practically and you wouldn't normally do it by just bending your knees.

To do so would no doubt make you fall on your face. Pretty obvious if you try it.

 

Try this... Close your eyes, stand in ready position, slowly bend your knees and feel when the weight distribution is exactly at the center of your foot/feet. Then open your eyes and see where the tip of your knee(s) is/are at. It will be just about at the tip of your toe(s). For you to argue this fact tells me that you have never tried this. And for you to come back to me and tell me it's not true, I will definately know that you are not admitting the true results of the experiment. Also, I never indicated to go past the toe, but up and over the toe (meaning not past the tip). Based on your comment I'm thinking you might have misunderstood what "over" the toe means - Over the top and not past.

Again...would you say that it is easier to change direction if your knees were straight and locked? Again...knee fodder for anyone that uses the knees as a target in a fight...which I do.

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that. I said it's not a requirement, again meaning it's not the primary factor in terms of body mechanics.

How can you coil and spring off if your knees aren't bent? Pushing with the foot on a straight leg will work, but much slower and weaker than with a bent knee and the force of the leg straightening to do so.

 

See last answer...

As I said just before this, I disagree.

 

Could you be more technically specific here. I can also say I disagree with you, but you won't know why??

Most interpret the “Coil & Spring Effect” as requiring deep bending of the knees to spring off or out for distance.

 

You don't need a "deep" bend of the knees. Just a slight inch or two of bend is sufficient. To much bend will slow your movement.

 

You lost me here... I think we both said the same thing here. What's the point.

uhhhhh...I don't see where the diaphragm has a lot to do with moving forward or backwards in this discussion. The buttocks, sure, as they are connected to the legs.

 

uhhhhh...It contracts muscles rapidly for pushing and lifting, like legs... With outside tension of the kees and lower body, you lift one leg, and this becomes the starting and driving force of this type of action. It's a slingshot effect like from a rubberband.

Here we have a difference inb thinking within the systems. We do not put out weight over the center of the foot, but rather on the ball of the foot. This allows us to push off either forward, or backwards quicker.

 

Are you saying that you walk around and spar like a ballerina with both feet on the balls? Or is it that one foot is on the Ball, and the other foot is primarily flat? I'm willing to bet that one foot is flat. If so, the flat foot would be your supporting leg.

Are we talking just standing in place doing techniques...or are we talking sparring/fighting here? If you're doing kata and standing for long periods without moving, then yes, you'll probably want your weight over the center of your foot. Fighting on the other hand...no, you want your weight over the ball of your foot. Again, I guess a difference in systems.

 

Again, you assume that we too do not have one foot resting on the ball when sparring - which may only be a 1mm or 2mm of the heel raised in our case. But still, the other foot is solidly planted as the supporting leg of body weight.

In a side/parallel stance..yes. In a front stance...no.

 

Again, you missed the point. The supporting leg can only be one leg in a non 50/50 stance. In a 50/50 stance, then both legs become the supporting factors equally. In an in-line stance, if that's what you are referring to, still the supporting leg is going to be one or both depending if the center of weight is forward or aft. Also, the supporting leg is always changing from front, to rear, to both, depending on what activity or actions you are doing.

Again, in your system..yes. Mine..no.

 

I'll be willing to bet it is and either you don't realize it or don't want to admit it. Zen Kutsu-dachi is pretty much a standard in any style I'v ever seen, and it's supposed to be generally a 60/40 weight distribution stance (60% to the front leg). You do this, the knee will most certainly have to be over the front toe for best stability in your stance. Othwise, you are not doing Zen Kutsu-dachi - and that doesn't matter what style you are taking. I believe I did site "Zen Kutsu-dachi?" Correct?

This I'll agree with.

 

I feel good that we agreed on something here.

OK...I agree with this also...normally...but not always.

 

We're gaining ground here too...

I agree that the knee needs to be bent, but not over the toe, as that will give you a forward wweight distribution and in my system, this is incorrect.

 

I figured that not everyone would agree with this one because many systems do what I call the "golfer's bend" (when picking up a ball and one leg sticking out for balance) when kicking. But believe it or not, you definately have a much more stable, balanced, faster, and powerful kick if the knee is bent when kicking.

In your system...yes, it's correct. In mine...nope..Hey...that's why there are so many different schools/systems out there. Everybody has a different way of coing things....and that's OK.

 

Not really, it's a pretty generic standard of body mechnics. If you truly break down that mechanics of what you truly are doing in your system or style, you'll see that there's really no difference. Perhaps a little more or less extreme on the outside movements, but the mechanics are just the same. You would have to site me some specific technical examples for me to consider a different side to this discussion.

 

- Killer -

[Killer Miller]

If you looked at it from a body mechanics perspective, yes there is truly only one correct answer - which would make it "the answer."

 

I'm not trying to imply that there are not variations of these mechanics. And many styles may or may not follow these mechanics to the tee or appropriately. And there are some styles/systems that just have poor technique period... They would not have a clue about these mechanics. But for maximum potential, and at very high and perfected levels of any style, I'm confident that these mechanics are the same.

 

I've seen a lot of people argue these mechanics in the past. Then I see them training, and they (or the higher levels of their art) are using the exact same body mechanics and were not aware that they were. But yet I see or discuss at high levels of their art, and they're pretty much the same thing - just explained a little different.

 

- Killer -

And, in all, there isn't "the answer". As said, IT depends on style, stance, and application. It maybe "his answer", but not "THE Answer".

 

The thread should have been on the many ways the knee(s) are bent for many reasons per style, stance, and application.

 

The question is "Why do you bend the supporting Knee? Not, why does he, the poster, bend the supporting knee. With that, when the word "you" is there, meaning directed to the reader, then he has his "own answer". Therefore it is HIS answer, the reader's and not someone that had posted the question's answer as "the answer".

[P.A.L]

Master Jules, nothing important, please refer to Shorinryu sensei post, that's what I meant, Regards,

[SaiFightsMS]

I am going to close this down now. Much of the discussion is just the same thing being said over and over again.