October Quiz

[aefibird]

You missed an option from the poll...

 

"because my instructor tells me to"

 

:P

[Killer Miller]

LOL, I like that answer aefibird.

 

- Killer -

[P.A.L]

Ok I am not a master in MA so I feel free to skip the credential and background checking part. I do have a MS in mechanical Eng. which should be enough for this thread.

 

1- To Lower Your Body's Center Of Gravity.

 

Yes it’s bring the center of gravity lower (in Y direction) ,how much? Depend on bending and your body structure, I would say between %1 to %3

 

2- To Allow Quick Change In Direction Of Movement.

 

This is correct too, why ? I think the main reason is answer #3

 

3-To Distribute Your Body's Weight over the Center of the foot.

 

When we bend the back knee, the center of gravity (in X direction) moves back so some of the weight moves to back leg(this facilitates the initiation of front foot movement) , also the force component of the weight on the back leg change from a point force on heel to a more uniform force from heel to ball of the foot which make the turns easier by decreasing the angular tension on the back knee joint.( this part is a little bit hard to explain since it’s a dynamics process from the time front foot start to move and the important moment of, center of gravity ,passing over the back foot to the time body turns and front foot sit at the new position) ,

 

4- To Create The Coil And Spring-Off Effect Of An Action.

 

I am not clear about this one and why you brought in the coil effect . by bending the leg you are increasing the potential energy in the back leg muscles which can be used for a quick motion ( not in all direction but in some directions).

 

I would say, all of the above answers are part of a very bigger answer (body mechanics), and there is no absolute answer since all of them are some how connected together. But if you insist to choose one I have to choose #3.

[47MartialMan]

I am still trying to interpret what does he mean by "supporting knee"? One knee or two? In a front stance, cat stance, or horse stance, etc.? This why there is no "set answer, the description of what the legs and body are doing or about to do is vague, such as the answer will not be "the answer".

[Sasori_Te]

I will agree with 47mm here (Wow a first ). The initial information is too vague to answer with any certainty. Without specifics I still say that all are correct and there are more applications for a bent knee besides.

[Killer Miller]

OK, I give this time only.

 

Why Do You Bend The Supporting Knee?

 

First off, the key word in this quiz is the “supporting” knee. And actually, this could be plural in any 50/50 weight distributed stance. I’m not referring to bending knees in general. And I also admit that I could have worded the question better for clarification. However, I wanted everyone to think and discuss the question a bit first before giving hints or the answer. Since this is actually the first of what I hope are many Quiz Poll questions to follow, I threw it out there not knowing all the uproar is would create – which is great actually (but we are all usually up for some sparring now and then. No harm.). Although, the discussion wasn’t going the direction I was hoping it would… So, for discussion sake, a little more clarification on the question.

 

The Supporting Knee is referring to the leg, or legs in an even stance, that supports most or all of the body’s weight. The knee(s) is usually, or is supposed to be, bent where the knee is just over the toe with a normal foot/feet when support of full body weight is required.

 

To Lower Your Body's Center Of Gravity.

 

This is not the correct answer. Lowering your center of gravity is actually determined by the length and width of a stance and is not determined by how much you bend. Although it is reasonable to say that by bending your knees you will lower your stance some, however this is not the primary factor to lower center of gravity of a stance. This is considering that your knees should never bend any more than it takes the knee to go over your front toe for weight support.

 

To Allow Quick Change In Direction Of Movement.

 

This is not the correct answer. Again, bending your knees is not a requirement to change direction of movement – although it does make for a more stable change in direction if the knees are at least slightly bent or more. This can be acquired by pivoting ball and or heel, coil and spring-off effect, shifting, etc. Yes, bending the knees is always a good thing, but not the primary factor for this answer.

 

To Create The Coil And Spring-Off Effect Of An Action.

 

This is not the correct answer. Although the knee(s) is generally bent when doing this action, it is not the driving force of this action and bending knees are not the primary factor of accomplishing this action. Most interpret the “Coil & Spring Effect” as requiring deep bending of the knees to spring off or out for distance. What is actually the primary driving force of this action is outside tension of the knees, along with an even weight distribution of the feet. With good outside tension on the feet, then with a quick contraction of the lower diaphragm, as you are contracting the forward directed foot, this also cause the rear foot to push off or propel you. The outside tension of the knees (and inside tension of the buttocks) acts like a stretched rubber band or coil spring, when the front foot is released, it’s as if you released the trigger or cut off one of your legs. Thus, you are rapidly propelled to the intended direction.

 

To Distribute Your Body's Weight Over The Center Of The Foot.

 

This is the CORRECT answer… When the supporting leg is straight, your body’s weight is on the heel. When the knee(s) is bent too far, the supporting weight is towards the ball of the foot/feet. Neither of these conditions provides a balanced condition in a stance or body action executed. However, when the supporting knee(s) is bent over the front toe, the body’s weight is evenly distributed across the foot. In the case of Zen Kutsu-dachi, most the weight is on the front foot (supporting leg) and that knee should be bent over the front toe. In the case of Ko Kutsu-dachi, most of the weight is on the rear foot (supporting leg) and the rear leg should be bent over the toe. Now with Kiba-dachi, you have a 50/50 weight distribution and both knees should be bent over the front toe (both legs supporting equal weight). In this case, you have a centered 50/50 stance from left to right, and by bending the knees over the front toes; you also have a 50/50 weight distribution forward and aft as well (two contact points for gripping of each foot instead of one). However, knees not properly bent, you will wobble in your stance.

 

The same also applies when kicking. Many Karate-ka kick and wonder why they wobble when kicking? In the case of Mawashi-geri (round house), many kick with a straight leg. This causes the weight on the supporting foot to be loaded on the heel – thus a teeter-totter effect is the result. However, when kicking with the knee bent over the toe, you are stable, pivoting is a snap, the reaction force from the kick is properly passed through your body, solidly to the floor, and back to your target without a waver in your stance.

 

So in light of the above answers is why I stated only one correct answer. Yes, they all are interlinked. But if you look at the primary function and key result of a body function or action, many times there is truly only one correct answer.

 

Next time I will try to be more careful how the question is presented. There really was nothing wrong with the question and answers, but I could see the confusion of where I was coming from or going to with the question - which was another story. I didn’t want to clarify too much on the question and answer because my primary purpose was for everyone to just stop, think, and discuss what was presented to them. That didn’t happen…

 

I’ll just write this one off as the first trial version. Master Jules has agreed to carry the torch for the November question – which I’m sure he learned a lot from this post as to what to do (or don’t do) on the next Quiz Poll question. And Master Jules, please don’t forget to click the “Add” button after typing the last “All Of The Above” answer… Also, when you complete your November question, choose and pass the torch to another member that is willing to participate. Also, let’s try to give good and complete explanations of the final answer when presented.

 

Anyhow, this question is now officially open for discussion for the rest of the month. Feel free to ask me for any additional clarification on my question or answers. Also, feel free to discuss it further amongst yourselves.

 

Your’s truly,

 

- Killer Miller -

[P.A.L]

thanks K.K. , very good question though. from other hand I am disagree with "the correct answer" approach ,I picked up #3 as I explained as one of the answers, May be we could call it “the best answer” . I hope as you mentioned, Master Jules pays more attention to this kind of problems for the next question.

 

Cheers,

[Sasori_Te]

OK, I give this time only.

 

Why Do You Bend The Supporting Knee?

 

First off, the key word in this quiz is the “supporting” knee. And actually, this could be plural in any 50/50 weight distributed stance. I’m not referring to bending knees in general.

 

You just did refer to bending the knees in general by referring to "any 50/50 weight distributed stance." Also, any time that both knees are bent and both feet are on the ground they will both be supporting knees no matter what the weight distribution.

The Supporting Knee is referring to the leg, or legs in an even stance, that supports most or all of the body’s weight. The knee(s) is usually, or is supposed to be, bent where the knee is just over the toe with a normal foot/feet when support of full body weight is required.

 

This is a generalization and an assumption on your part. Not all styles do this the same way.

 

To Lower Your Body's Center Of Gravity.

 

This is not the correct answer. Lowering your center of gravity is actually determined by the length and width of a stance and is not determined by how much you bend. Although it is reasonable to say that by bending your knees you will lower your stance some, however this is not the primary factor to lower center of gravity of a stance. This is considering that your knees should never bend any more than it takes the knee to go over your front toe for weight support.

 

Again, this is a generalization on your part about the specifics of your style. Physically, you lower your center of balance when ever you bend your knees or physically somehow lower your body as a unit closer to the ground. You are getting stability of a stance confused with lowering your center here. By your last statement you are discounting many styles of martial arts due to the stances that they use. What about a cross-legged stance?

 

Oops, gotta' go. I'll answer the rest of this post with my opinions in a little while. Sorry for cutting my views off in the middle.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

OK, I give this time only.

 

Why Do You Bend The Supporting Knee?

 

The Supporting Knee is referring to the leg, or legs in an even stance, that supports most or all of the body’s weight. The knee(s) is usually, or is supposed to be, bent where the knee is just over the toe with a normal foot/feet when support of full body weight is required.

 

What we need to keep in mind here throughout this discussion, is that that is right for you and the system that your practice, isn't necessarily right for all systems...as has been mentioned several tinmes before. For example, in the system that I practice, having your knee out over your big toe is correct in a side/parallel stance, but NOT in a front stance where one foot is in front of the other. Doing so puts your weight to far forward. This is OK if you're planning on lunging at a person, but isn't a good idea if you may want to go backwards or to the side.

To Lower Your Body's Center Of Gravity.

 

This is not the correct answer. Lowering your center of gravity is actually determined by the length and width of a stance and is not determined by how much you bend.

 

OK...so..in your system, you widen your stance...but don't bend your knees? You stand there straight legged? It sounds like "knee fodder" to me....meaning if you fight me on the street with straight legs..no matter how far apart they are..I'll take your knees out first. You must use really wide stances...correct? We don't. Short, more natural stances with the knees ALWAYS bent.

This is considering that your knees should never bend any more than it takes the knee to go over your front toe for weight support.

 

To do so would no doubt make you fall on your face. Pretty obvious if you try it.

To Allow Quick Change In Direction Of Movement.

 

This is not the correct answer. Again, bending your knees is not a requirement to change direction of movement – although it does make for a more stable change in direction if the knees are at least slightly bent or more.

 

Again...would you say that it is easier to change direction if your knees were straight and locked? Again...knee fodder for anyone that uses the knees as a target in a fight...which I do.

This can be acquired by pivoting ball and or heel, coil and spring-off effect, shifting, etc. Yes, bending the knees is always a good thing, but not the primary factor for this answer.

 

How can you coil and spring off if your knees aren't bent? Pushing with the foot on a straight leg will work, but much slower and weaker than with a bent knee and the force of the leg straightening to do so.

To Create The Coil And Spring-Off Effect Of An Action.

 

This is not the correct answer. Although the knee(s) is generally bent when doing this action, it is not the driving force of this action and bending knees are not the primary factor of accomplishing this action.

 

As I said just before this, I disagree.

Most interpret the “Coil & Spring Effect” as requiring deep bending of the knees to spring off or out for distance.

 

You don't need a "deep" bend of the knees. Just a slight inch or two of bend is sufficient. To much bend will slow your movement.

What is actually the primary driving force of this action is outside tension of the knees, along with an even weight distribution of the feet. With good outside tension on the feet, then with a quick contraction of the lower diaphragm, as you are contracting the forward directed foot, this also cause the rear foot to push off or propel you. The outside tension of the knees (and inside tension of the buttocks) acts like a stretched rubber band or coil spring, when the front foot is released, it’s as if you released the trigger or cut off one of your legs. Thus, you are rapidly propelled to the intended direction.

 

uhhhhh...I don't see where the diaphragm has a lot to do with moving forward or backwards in this discussion. The buttocks, sure, as they are connected to the legs.

To Distribute Your Body's Weight Over The Center Of The Foot.

 

This is the CORRECT answer… When the supporting leg is straight, your body’s weight is on the heel.

 

Here we have a difference inb thinking within the systems. We do not put out weight over the center of the foot, but rather on the ball of the foot. This allows us to push off either forward, or backwards quicker.

When the knee(s) is bent too far, the supporting weight is towards the ball of the foot/feet. Neither of these conditions provides a balanced condition in a stance or body action executed.

Are we talking just standing in place doing techniques...or are we talking sparring/fighting here? If you're doing kata and standing for long periods without moving, then yes, you'll probably want your weight over the center of your foot. Fighting on the other hand...no, you want your weight over the ball of your foot. Again, I guess a difference in systems.

However, when the supporting knee(s) is bent over the front toe, the body’s weight is evenly distributed across the foot.

 

In a side/parallel stance..yes. In a front stance...no.

In the case of Zen Kutsu-dachi, most the weight is on the front foot (supporting leg) and that knee should be bent over the front toe.

 

Again, in your system..yes. Mine..no.

In the case of Ko Kutsu-dachi, most of the weight is on the rear foot (supporting leg) and the rear leg should be bent over the toe.

 

This I'll agree with.

Now with Kiba-dachi, you have a 50/50 weight distribution and both knees should be bent over the front toe (both legs supporting equal weight). In this case, you have a centered 50/50 stance from left to right, and by bending the knees over the front toes; you also have a 50/50 weight distribution forward and aft as well (two contact points for gripping of each foot instead of one). However, knees not properly bent, you will wobble in your stance.

 

OK...I agree with this also...normally...but not always.

The same also applies when kicking. Many Karate-ka kick and wonder why they wobble when kicking? In the case of Mawashi-geri (round house), many kick with a straight leg. This causes the weight on the supporting foot to be loaded on the heel – thus a teeter-totter effect is the result. However, when kicking with the knee bent over the toe, you are stable, pivoting is a snap, the reaction force from the kick is properly passed through your body, solidly to the floor, and back to your target without a waver in your stance.

 

I agree that the knee needs to be bent, but not over the toe, as that will give you a forward wweight distribution and in my system, this is incorrect.

So in light of the above answers is why I stated only one correct answer. Yes, they all are interlinked. But if you look at the primary function and key result of a body function or action, many times there is truly only one correct answer.

 

In your system...yes, it's correct. In mine...nope..Hey...that's why there are so many different schools/systems out there. Everybody has a different way of coing things....and that's OK.

 

[Master Jules]

PAL......maybe I missed the point of your post, but what am I supposed to "pay more attention to" ?.....I do want to come up with a good quiz/poll for November, but what do you mean ?.....just curious....