stances in karate

[Hobbes]

Gripping the floor... I will relate some experiences with this. I don't know of any techical reason why you would want to do this, but I will say that it was emphasized in sanchin, tensho kata (which are recognised as GoJu-Ryu kata, but are core kata in Shito-Ryu also). I've trained on a lot of interesting surfaces including, for example.. side of a gravely hill, sandy beach, stone covered beach, in the water, on dry sand, wet sand, deck of a ship(rough seas), commuter train(that was interesting), grass, pavement, crushed stone and ice(standard ice rink) and -30 degrees C, which makes the properties much different. I will say that in all instances where I trained on uneven or slippery surfaces with or without footwear, I gripped the ground very instinctively. When I was instructed to grip on a smooth level floor, this was helping me train my toes and small muscles in my feet so that I would not tire as quickly on unusual surfaces. I recall training on volcanic soil on a 6 degree pitch and my feet would cramp up over the training session. When I went ice skating, the same thing occurred, my feet would get tired and I cramped. After a few weeks of effort gripping, I found that I tired less quickly and cramped less . After some time, I no longer cramped at all.

Bench press for the toes?

Now I'm not saying that this is the reason, but the toes are major players with balance and force distribution on changing surfaces. One could hypothesize that gripping is the best one can do on an ideal surface such as a dojo, so to prepare for the outside world.

Just my thoughts.

[jion]

post Funakoshi Shotokan:

Actually in zenkutsu the back foot and front foot are parallel. The front foot is turned inward a little. The back leg straight, almost all the weight on your front leg. The toes are not visible, and your shin should be at least at a 90° angles to the floor, if not more.

New Shotokan:

Now the foot should be straight. The simple reason for this, is the tension on the knee. The knee turns and twists a little with the foot pointing inward. Although I've never had any problems, it does cause strain. But then again so does training for 2 hours in zenkutsu dachi anyway

Personally, I prefer the slightly inward version, just out of habit. I think it's bad focusing on the aethetics

of people's stances and not the functional, practical aspect. Zenkutsu is there to push the weight forward and nothing more.

[cleung]

These little things can differ among different instructors, schools and of course styles. Just go with what you have to do for your own school for successful gradings.

[Nurvingiel]

New Shotokan:

Now the foot should be straight. The simple reason for this, is the tension on the knee. The knee turns and twists a little with the foot pointing inward. Although I've never had any problems, it does cause strain. But then again so does training for 2 hours in zenkutsu dachi anyway

We used to do the turned in toes in front (front and back feet are parallel), but now we do the front foot is straight forward. We changed because of the pressure on the knee thing.

I tend to point in my toes out of habit, but I like the straight foot way. I don't feel my stance is less solid with the foot straight. But yeah, ask your instructor.

[Killer Miller]

Try putting outside tension on both knees without the toes gripping the floor - the feet will slip and turn outwards. Also, the toes are part of the foot's 50/50 weight distribution needed for a stable stance - else weight becomes on the heel or ball of the foot and becomes wobbly or unstable. Also, for clarification for some that read this post, many styles believe that in order to become mobile, the heel of the foot is raised to allow for a springy and mobile stance. This is not true in Shotokan. The stance is always flat when in position to actually carry out a technique, or at least one foot is flat of the supporting leg. Even when moving in Shotokan, one foot is always flat - one foot transfer up and the other quickly transfers flat to maintain stability of the movement and allows immediate changes in direction and speed if necessary. If both feet are not flat, at any time, you lose the ability to quickly change direction or speed, and if someone detects your breathing timing, and kicks you during this transition of both feet not making contact, you easily go down or become very unstable when kicked - or what ever they decide to do...

There are two primary purposes of a stance in Shotokan:

1. Provide stability at all times of technique execution.

2. To allow a varying tempo and length of movement to be executed at any time - if necessary.

For #1 above, stability is significant to the stance being used - zenkutsu kachi (front stance), kokutsu dachi (back stance), kiba dachi (straddle leg stance), etc. Each stance has a different purpose and requires a different percentage of weight distribution for effectiveness and directional mobility. Example, zenkutsu dachi is a 60/40 stance that is very strong for frontal attacks and very difficult to be pushed back on - but easy to be sweeped or pulled off balanced to the side. Kiba dach is a 50/50 stance and is very stable from side to side, but easily pulled front of rearward off balance. Kokutsu dachi is 70/30 stance and is more of a defensive stance when driven backwards and provides a very stable stance when being pushed rearward, but easily put off balance in a sidways manner - more than zenkutsu dachi.

For #2 above, speed and mobility must be consistent regardless of what stance you are using. This is obtained through proper weight distribution of a stance with the proper tension appropriate for the stance. In zenkutsu dachi and kiba dachi, the stances are actually very similar except the weight distribution and where the toes point are different - but two totally different uses and directional stability. The toes actually remain parallel in both stances, except the feet are exactly straight ahead in kabi dachi (if body is facing the front of the dojo) to allow good sideways stability, and a 45 degree in zen kutsudachi. Kokutsu dachi uses an "L" shaped stance.

In order to quickly change directions during or after technique execution, you use breathing and a spring and coil affect in your stance. This can be one foot being the spring and coil or both feet being a spring and coil. This spring is tensioned to varying degrees for the need. In order for the spring to propel, is must first be coiled and ready to go and firmly anchaored to the ground. Thus a proper stance with the proper weight distribution and proper anchoring to the ground and proper inside or outside tension on the legs as necessary for the movement. This equates to kees being bent, weight distibution proper for the direction you are going to propel, and proper anchoring to the ground via full weight distribution over the supporting or propelling foot/feet (meaning that the toes gripping the floor is part of the full wight distribution and anchoring of the supporting foot/feet). When releasing the spring, the result is immediate. Versus having to first coild the spring and then release causes unnecessay timing needed for effective movement and technique execution.

I'm half a sleep, waking up with my first cup of Kocha, so I hope this makes sense and I haven't forgotten any key points. If I forgot anything, ask and I'll reply or clarify any missing points...

- Killer -

Putting the toes in a couple of degrees allow you to grip the floor and also apply proper outside tension on the knees for that coil and spring starting action you need as well as a firm, but mobile stance.

- Killer -

I've heard this 'grip the floor' thing before but never heard a good explanation of WHY you'd want to do that. What's the point?

[Takeda Shingen]

We used to do the turned in toes in front (front and back feet are parallel), but now we do the front foot is straight forward. We changed because of the pressure on the knee thing.

Osu. "old" style karate did this for strength, stable, gripping (Killer Miller - excellent points)....also, old Okinawan Karate that promoted a lot of Sanchin dachi stance...-- for strength and one told of bend of the knee down to cover/block kicks low and to groin. I do the turn in out of habit...more modern Sensei yells at me.....turn in is strain on the knee...does not ride on the joint ball...pinching pressure on meniscus...after fellow karate ka's knee surgery - I am trying to stop....straight gives more speed, fluid fwd/back motion.

thank you.

Osu.

TS

[Killer Miller]

Thanks Takeda Shingen,

You mention that the modern method is to straighten the foot for less tension on the knees to minimize damage. Knee injuries have always been an issue, but not because turning the foot in is the cause, but of inexperienced karate-ka "over tensioning" the knees as being the cause. Turning the foot/feet actually allows more stability and quick reaction speed than a straight foot. However, there is a perfect medium of the amount of necessary tension to apply. Many karate-ka over tension the knees which is just as bad, if not worse, than under tensioning... Fuel for thought.

- Killer -

[Takeda Shingen]

Osu KM. Personally, I cannot break the habit of turning foot in...provides - as you point out - excellent lateral range of motion/reaction..opponent does not know where i go...also provides nice for turning into ushiro geri...tension is the indeed the culprit...going full steam forward and to a dead stop with foot turned is what puts the pinch on knee joint....knowing when to ease into that is crucial.

Osu.

TS

[Killer Miller]

With proper breathing, kime, contracting all muscles in unisen, you actually protect vital organs/bones/joints from damage. If over extending or tensing in one area, damage occurs. Nishiyama us to have us run from one side of the dojo to the other and stop on a dime with lungeing punch, without any movement at focus, kiai, and all muscles properly contracted. Then immediately into free style ready position after focus. We would do this over, and over, and over till legs turned to gello and back to sound muscles with out second wind...

- Killer -

Osu KM. Personally, I cannot break the habit of turning foot in...provides - as you point out - excellent lateral range of motion/reaction..opponent does not know where i go...also provides nice for turning into ushiro geri...tension is the indeed the culprit...going full steam forward and to a dead stop with foot turned is what puts the pinch on knee joint....knowing when to ease into that is crucial.

Osu.

TS

[Takeda Shingen]

Nishiyama us to have us run from one side of the dojo to the other and stop on a dime with lungeing punch, without any movement at focus, kiai, and all muscles properly contracted. Then immediately into free style ready position after focus. We would do this over, and over, and over till legs turned to gello and back to sound muscles with out second wind.

must try this... sounds like exceptional training...KM - thank you for sharing. You are very fortunate....

Osu.

TS