any thoughts about poking someone in the eyes in a fight

[dear john]

i have never done it, but i think it would be a good idea if some were to develope some type a skill in being able to do so.

 

i think there should be sparring classes where you wear safety goggles and you practice poking each other in the eye, blocks and strikes.

 

if you could become a skilled eye poker, i think it would add an extra edge to you combative MA. after all combative MA's have no rules.

 

any thoughts, ideas.

[gcav]

I think most MAs have eye gouges. I would only recommend them in a life or death type fight because you're looking at exessive force issues.

[JEM618]

IMHO: In a fight situation with your opponent moving around, positioning yourself in such a way that you have a clear shot at (a) target(s) the size of a silver dollar, then executing a 'poke' with an extended index finger at one eye, or a 'double poke' with your extended index and middle finger to both eyes would be extremely difficult.

 

There are other considerations as well.

 

We are hard wired to close our eyes (blink) when anything approaches our eyes.

 

Eyelashes also act as sensors and aid the above, so even if we don’t see it, if our eyelashes ‘tell us’ to blink.

 

Along with that, we automatically pull our heads back, or turn them away.

 

The eyes are surrounded by bone, and the eyes are set back slightly to offer added protection. (Missing the eye and poking bone, you may sprain or break a finger.)

 

OF COURSE, you may be able to get past all that and get a god ‘poke’ in.

 

I’m sure that any technique you would be able to land, even if only 50% effective would cause your opponent some discomfort.

 

That is to say, if you tried to poke him in the eye, and he closed his eye, pulled his head back, or turned it slightly, a poke to a closed eye, even if not direct, would still make him rather unhappy.

 

Instead of a ‘poke’ how about a ‘rake’ in which the hand is used in a claw like fashion to attack the over all eye area; seems like many styles use that sort of facial attack.

 

Again, IMHO, I wouldn’t bank on using it and probably not think about using it as an attack.

 

However, as a defensive technique, I think ‘poking’ is effective. Not sure if poking is the proper term, maybe ‘gouging’? Anyway, a few situations I can think of:

 

Your opponent has got you in a bear hug, face to face, and you can get your arms free.

 

Your opponent is choking (throttling) you, face to face, both of his hand around your neck.

 

You are on the ground, either in the guard or mounted, you are being choked (throttled) or attacked by your opponent.

 

Technique: grab your opponent by the head as tightly as possible, one hand on either side of his head around ear level. Doing so will put your thumbs directly over his eyes. Drive your thumbs into his eyes. Although his eyes may close, he will not be able to pull back (enough) to avoid the pressure you will be able to apply.

 

Another alternative, ‘cup’ his ears. Cup your hand slightly and hit him hard over the ears. Done properly, you can generate enough pressure to burst and eardrum.

 

I agree with the poster above, life or death only, what you don’t kill can come back and sue you. And whether or not you kill, what you do can get you’re a** in plenty of trouble with the law.

[JerryLove]

I have a finger-tip whip. It's pretty damn fast and strong enough to break your typical MA pine board. It's not a gouge, it's a hit, and it's got a slew of targets... but I'd love to pop one in my opponent's eyes right at the beginning of the fight... it's not gonna help his long-term prospects for winning.

 

I think you are far better to go for a hit like that (lots of contact points, works even if you miss the eyes). An eye-rake won't end a fight, but it's can lead to excellent follow-ups that will end the fight, and even if it does not, it hurts his abilities.

[delta1]

AK has a lot of finger techniques, including pokes and gouges, and the finger whip. JL is correct, that whip is effective, and to more targets than eyes. It's in Taiji as well (Single Whip). The whip there is actually the arm that loops over like you are using a buggy whip. But the crane hand can also represent a finger whip.

...with your opponent moving around, positioning yourself in such a way that you have a clear shot at target the size of a silver dollar, then executing a 'poke'... would be extremely difficult.

 

...We are hard wired to close our eyes (blink) when anything approaches our eyes.... Along with that, we automatically pull our heads back, or turn them away. ... The eyes are surrounded by bone, and the eyes are set back slightly to offer added protection. (Missing the eye and poking bone, you may sprain or break a finger.)...would cause your opponent some discomfort. ...f you tried to poke him in the eye, and he closed his eye, pulled his head back, or turned it slightly, a poke to a closed eye, even if not direct, would still make him rather unhappy.

 

Instead of a ‘poke’ how about a ‘rake’ in which the hand is used in a claw like fashion to attack the over all eye area; seems like many styles use that sort of facial attack.

 

Eye rakes, gouges, pokes, thrusts, whips- all are effective. What you use depends on what you are presented with.

 

Most of the time a finger technique to the eyes is used to set up something. You are looking for exactly the reactions you described, and they are effective at getting these reactions whether they make contact or not, again for the reasons you described. Of course, if they do make contact, you can also do dammage, possibily dissable him and end it there.

 

Finger techniques to the eyes are also useful in situations where you need to strike fast, but are not in a position to generate a lot of power. For example, your strike to his face is intercepted. Sometimes, you can go through just enough to change it to a finger technique to the eyes and keep the initiative.

 

You brought up an excellant point about the eyes being well protected. Both Kenpo and Taiji teach that finger techniques are done loose. The fingers don't tense until they reach the target. A straight finger thrust to the eyes should be done with a naturally cupped, loose hand and fingers. All five digits should point at the target. This has several advantages, not the least of which is that if a finger lands on the orbit of the eye or the bridge of his nose, you won't jam or break it. Also, you are far more likely to hit at least one eye, probably both. Loose fingers will slide off obstructions and into the socket, and since he's moving, you have a spread of weapons aimed at the target. If he moves too much, you may be able to thumb hook an eye, then come back with a finger rake. Your intent here is to get his eyes, not just poke him. There's a difference.

 

One last thought; eyes are tougher than you think. You are more likely to scratch than to 'put out an eye'. If the situation called for it, I wouldn't hesitate to use a finger technique to the eyes.

 

Edit: Jerry, I know it can be done, to break a board with that finger whip. But I cringe at the though! Just thinking about it makes me want to reach for the Celebrix!

[Shane]

Eye gauges are of course realistic and not to hard to perform, especially since about 80% of male fights end up on the ground your in close quarters at that point. Great technique but you really need to look at the situation and see if it calls for it.

[Northren Ogre]

I had a problem once throwing out a coked up patron when I used to bounce. He got ahold of my throat and had me lifted up off the ground(he would have had to come the night I was on by myself). I rained elbows and punches to this guys head, to no avail. A good kick in the groin had no effect. This guy was wired up. My last resort was to sick a thumb in each of his eyes, and hard! Now that got his attention and he let go of me. Now the scrap outside went a little better, but there are times when you have to resort to tactics like this.

[47MartialMan]

"The eyes have it"

 

I have to agree with gcav:

 

I think most MAs have eye gouges. I would only recommend them in a life or death type fight because you're looking at exessive force issues.

[dear john]

listen im not saying this would be a good tool to use all the time

 

and yes i realize how hard it would be to poke somebody in th eyes in a fight.

 

but you all forget about my idea about simply sparring with safety goggles to perfect this dangerous technique. if you could become good in sparring, a fight shouldnt be much harder.

 

has any of you ever tried a sparring situation.

[thaiboxerken]

I wouldn't gouge any eyes, unless it was a life/death situation. You can simply touch the eyes to get the results you need, which is a painful distraction and a loss of vision.