I just earned my black belt!!

[47MartialMan]

The Ki filled that void for you, but any other belief could've filled that void. It's my opinion that this Ki is simply a mental construct in which you are placing your fears and doubts into and taking confidence and peace from. Hey, if it works for you, fine.

 

We're still not talking about anything testable, just your feelings and internal beliefs.

 

I guess it is something like a "Born-again Christian"

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, this Ki belief is very similar to religious beliefs.

[JEM618]

Yes, like MartialMan said.. isn't it likely that the TKD hero you describe simply benefitted from cross-training in another art and that the "ki" belief concidentally happened to be part of it. I mean, if he trained in Brazillian Jujitsu, for example, would he not have improved his TKD as well?

 

Not necessarily, I studied BJJ for a few years along with TKD, and in a TKD sparring match, where takedowns, locks, etc, are not allowed, none of the skill I acquired was transferable or improved my TKD sparring.

Also, I can understand your "missing" link, some people have a desire for the supernatural in their lives. The mundane world just doesn't seem to be fantastic enough for those people. The Ki filled that void for you, but any other belief could've filled that void. In indonesia, they practice a form of magic that might've worked for you. It's my opinion that this Ki is simply a mental construct in which you are placing your fears and doubts into and taking confidence and peace from. Hey, if it works for you, fine.

 

Again, and again, I say the 'ki' I am talking about is natural, not supernatural. And I am not talking about 'magic missing link to fill a void', when I said some thing was missing, I was referring to the way MA were originally taught. During the day of the samurai, they followed rigorous training regimes that were both physical and mental, or ‘spiritual’. (Not talking about faith in God here, as most religious practice in Japan goes against the belief of (one) God. Although in some there is a God for everything.) What I was getting at is that in the west, at more dojos than not, MA have been stripped down to mechanics; punch, kick, block, with little or no training of the mind. I was looking for a way to enhance my training, I believed I had reached my physical peak and wanted to become better and was wondering how to do that.

We're still not talking about anything testable, just your feelings and internal beliefs.

 

I am talking about something completely testable. Like I said, everyone is caught up in this unbendable arm thing. In shinshintoitsu aikido there are 15 ‘ki’ exercises we must become proficient with to earn rank. For 5th kyu, there are 5 (retested in 4th kyu), For 3rd kyu there are 10, the original 5 and additional 5. (retested in 2nd kyu) For 1st kyu, there are 15, the previous 10 and an additional 5. Since 1st kyu is akin to a pre-black belt test, you don’t become a candidate for the sho-dan test until you can perform all 15 at chu-kyu level.

 

Several of these exercises have 3 levels of difficulty (sho, chu, jo), For example, 上がらない手, is tested on all the kyu tests, but in 5th kyu it’s tested sho, 3rd kyu it’s tested chu, and 1st kyu and sho-dan it is tested at jo)

 

You say we are not talking about anything testable, and I am telling you that it is tested all the time. Please tell me exactly what you don't understand about that.

[thaiboxerken]

So, these testable exercises, do you think a person must have sufficient training in "Chi" or "Ki" to do them? Theses tests could be worth one-million dollars.

 

What are these feats that you test?

[JEM618]

So, these testable exercises, do you think a person must have sufficient training in "Chi" or "Ki" to do them? Theses tests could be worth one-million dollars.

 

I am limiting this discussion to ‘ki’ as I do not have sufficient knowledge, experience, or training with ‘chi’.

 

We really can’t say that it requires sufficient ‘training’, i.e., someone explaining how to use it or demonstrating it. It takes sufficient understanding in the principals or concepts of it in conjunction with practice, actually applying the concepts (to your technique). In one of my first post in this forum, ‘I said, ‘Five minutes to learn, a lifetime to master.’ By master I mean apply the principal or concept to all techniques with out thought or hesitation. Really to do all this in isolation doesn’t take much, it’s applying it that is tough.

 

I could clearly explain how to add and subtract, and show you examples, but that wouldn’t actually mean you could add and subtract, would it? The true test of your comprehension to the concepts or principals of addition or subtraction would to have you solve some equations based on what I had shown you.

 

As I said previously, in shinshin-toitsu aikido, there are 15 ‘ki’ exercises we learn. Some are designed to introduce a basic principle or concept. Other are derived from positions your body will be in at some point during the execution of a particular technique. We learn which of the four basic principals apply to each situation and practice its application. After practicing the ‘ki’ exercise, we practice the actual technique and try to apply what we have learned.

 

If you recall the story about Tohei a few posts back, while in Hawaii the first time, simply executing the techniques in a mechanical fashion produced mixed results. The second time, when executing the same techniques, and applying the four basic principals of ‘ki’ he did much better.

 

So, Ken, if we could spend an afternoon together, I could demonstrate all of the ‘ki’ exercises I know, all 15 of them. Moreover, I am completely confidant that I could have you reproduce them at acceptable level through some trial and error. Yes, you would, in the end, understand the principals or concepts of ‘ki’. After that you could call it what ever you wanted and see that it is not some super-natural ‘trick’.

 

The ‘trick’ (and here I mean difficult part, not magic, or fooling someone) is to apply the principals or concepts that you learned to the techniques you already know.

 

This is akin to the football coach explaining a new play to a well trained football team. The team knows exactly what to do, they have a plan, but when they get out on the field, well you know, s*** happens.

 

‘ki’ in itself is not a technique, it enhances technique. A car cannot run on nitrous oxide alone, the car needs gasoline, too. Of course the car can go fast with out nitrous oxide, but it goes even faster with it.

 

And Ken, this million dollar thing is really wearing thin. If you’d like, I’ll go back through all our posts and count how many times I have unequivocally told you that the ‘ki’ I am discussing here is natural and not super-natural and would not qualify for the ‘Randi Challenge’. At this point, and please forgive me for being so abrupt, your insistence to mention this point could only lead one to believe:

 

A) You are ignorant and can’t understand what you are reading, or

 

B) You are intentionally posting the same stance to aggravate others.

 

Now, that being said, I am not accusing you of either, or insulting your intelligence. But let’s face it; it’s getting a bit ridiculous.

 

I mean hundreds of thousands of people have been practicing shinshin-toitsu aikido under Tohei for about 40 years or so. Don't you think if any one if them, even for a second, thought the 'ki' they practice fell within the 'Randi Challenge' criteria, one of them would have tried by now?

[JEM618]

Isn't all the same from a Eastern perspective?

 

You tell me, you are the guy with 30 year research under his belt.

 

Buddhism traveled from India to China to Japan. Each country practices it differently, yet it is still classified as Buddhism.

 

Japan had no formal writing system before importing kanji from China. Although most of the kanji remain the same, the reading and meaning are often quite different.

 

手紙 = in Chinese this means toilet paper, in Japanese it means a letter written by hand. both are pronounced differently.

[JEM618]

So, does this mean that most Japanese stuff is taken from outside sources?

 

Alot of Japanese culture was influenced by China. The Japanese written language is taken from China's written language.

 

SSSh, people that love Japanese culture and etc., may hear and freak

 

Discretion is the better part of valor....

 

Oh, I get it that's funny!!!! Hahahaha...

 

Sigh...

[47MartialMan]

I am limiting this discussion to ‘ki’ as I do not have sufficient knowledge, experience, or training with ‘chi’.

 

But yet you can claim it helped you with TKD?

 

After practicing the ‘ki’ exercise, we practice the actual technique and try to apply what we have learned.

 

What actual technique? What kind for example?

 

This is akin to the football coach explaining a new play to a well trained football team. The team knows exactly what to do, they have a plan, but when they get out on the field, well you know, s*** happens.

 

So, the Aikido instructor (the coach) teached Ki (the new play), then the practitoners (the team players) get into real life (the field), well you know, s*** does happens.

 

‘ki’ in itself is not a technique, it enhances technique. A car cannot run on nitrous oxide alone, the car needs gasoline, too. Of course the car can go fast with out nitrous oxide, but it goes even faster with it.

 

Problem-nitrous is bad for the engine longevity. Using this anaolgy, that this "belief" in Ki could be bad for a human longevity?

 

I mean hundreds of thousands of people have been practicing shinshin-toitsu aikido under Tohei for about 40 years or so. Don't you think if any one if them, even for a second, thought the 'ki' they practice fell within the 'Randi Challenge' criteria, one of them would have tried by now?Probably and failed-cause none of them came forth to shout "look at me-I proved it and am richer". Or did not attempt for had no means to prove it?

 

Perhaps Ki is just another term for saying "mind over matter". Or getting "psyched up (or out)"

[JEM618]

I am limiting this discussion to ‘ki’ as I do not have sufficient knowledge, experience, or training with ‘chi’.

 

But yet you can claim it helped you with TKD?

 

KI not CHI what part of that sentence don't you understand?

 

And yes, I claimed KI not CHI improved my technique... Why do people in this forum suffer from short term memory?

 

After practicing the ‘ki’ exercise, we practice the actual technique and try to apply what we have learned.

 

What actual technique? What kind for example?

 

Go back in the thread, some are explained, you can navigate back through the thread at the bottom of the page or search my posts....

 

This is akin to the football coach explaining a new play to a well trained football team. The team knows exactly what to do, they have a plan, but when they get out on the field, well you know, s*** happens.

 

So, the Aikido instructor (the coach) teached Ki (the new play), then the practitoners (the team players) get into real life (the field), well you know, s*** does happens.

 

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. let's limit the 'field' to the dojo at this point. Let's see if I can make it even simpler... Micheal Jordan show you how to dunk a basketball,, just you and him in the gym, he explains the run-up, the take-off, the arm motion, etc. Then, throws you the ball and says go ahead. Are you, after watching and hearing an explanation gonna slam dunk on your first try? Maybe, maybe not. Even if you do, can you do it ten times in a row? Moreover, can you do it in the pressure of a game, perfect your timing, ignore distractions from the opposing team, the screams of the crowd? That’s why we are not all Micheal Jordan.

 

‘ki’ in itself is not a technique, it enhances technique. A car cannot run on nitrous oxide alone, the car needs gasoline, too. Of course the car can go fast with out nitrous oxide, but it goes even faster with it.

 

Problem-nitrous is bad for the engine longevity. Using this anaolgy, that this "belief" in Ki could be bad for a human longevity?

 

Yes, I know in the long run it's bad for the car.... ya, ya, ya, DID YOU GET THE MAIN POINT? The car performs better with it. Guess I'll have to research some better anaolgies.

 

I mean hundreds of thousands of people have been practicing shinshin-toitsu aikido under Tohei for about 40 years or so. Don't you think if any one if them, even for a second, thought the 'ki' they practice fell within the 'Randi Challenge' criteria, one of them would have tried by now?

 

Probably and failed-cause none of them came forth to shout "look at me-I proved it and am richer". Or did not attempt for had no means to prove it?

 

Hey, you guys are the ones turning a discussion about 'ki' into a p***ing contest. I've got nothing to prove, this is a discussion about 'ki' and my experience with it. It is unfortunate that the main contributors have never experienced it, refuse to try, etc. It really turns into a sill one sided discussion.

 

Perhaps Ki is just another term for saying "mind over matter". Or getting "psyched up (or out)

 

Well, 47MM, until you further your research, actually experience it for what it is, and then have something concrete to add, the point is moot, don't you think. I mean being a researcher and all you know you can't publish your finding if you haven't found them yet... I mean there are people researching the use of hydrogen as a safe source of power, or cars that run on seawater, but at this point they have nothing….)

 

[thaiboxerken]

You claim Ki is natural, yet it is not something that is evident. It's not something that science has discovered or has an explanation from, or even acknowledges exists. Because of this, it is a paranormal phenomena and it does qualify for the JREF challenge. You can even email James Randi at randi@randi.org to verify this.

 

It seems to me that Ki is simply something you believe to be real. It is a mental construct in which you are taking confidence from. Because of this, you feel more confident doing mundane techniques and that is the reason you are better at those techniques. It probably has little to do with an "energy" that resides in the body more than it has to do with your self-confidence and practice.

 

Your constant appeal to experience over evidence shows me that you really have only a belief. Believers of faith-healing are the same way, so are believers in witch-craft. It's always something to be experienced, not something evident.

 

Why is that?