I just earned my black belt!!

[thaiboxerken]

So, does this mean that most Japanese stuff is taken from outside sources?

 

Alot of Japanese culture was influenced by China. The Japanese written language is taken from China's written language.

[JEM618]

JEM.. you are rather vague with your definition of Ki. It seems like you are evasive.

 

Like I said, Ueshiba put it best:

 

Rely not on the brush (written word) or mouth (oral explaination) for understanding the technique.

 

Attain enlightenment through practice.

 

To see what I am up against, please choose the most difficult technique or form you have ever learned and then type it out, a set of instructions, if you will, so that when I read it, I will be able to understand the instructions and perform the technique exactly as it should be done, with out actually seeing any pictures, or video clips, or 'live instruction'. With nothing in my hand but your set of instructions, would you feel confidant that I would be able to read the instructions, practice by myself without any feed back and then perform the technique exactly to your expectations?

 

Just imagine reading a set of instructions for passing the guard to a side mount position, or how to apply jujikatame from the mount. So difficult, explaining how person ‘A’ is positioned and how ‘B’ is positioned, which hand is on which side, what the next move is, what moves happen simultaneously, what to do if a variable is introduced, etc.

 

Here I am trying to explain a principal or concept, something that is to be applied to a technique to enhance its effectiveness.

 

Although it’s difficult to explain a principal or concept, I think it’s even harder to understand it or figure out how to apply it. It was and still is.

 

If we could all understand principals and techniques, we’d all be math wizards, right.

 

When you study any level of math, you lean simple stuff – addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, etc. Then you apply those to solve problems – actually learning addition, subtraction, multiplication, division is not the goal, it’s to understand the concept or principle and apply it; when your at the store, do I have enough money to but these things (addition), balancing your checkbook (subtraction), how much is a years worth of lessons? (multiplication), we are going to split the bill at the restaurant (division).

 

I higher levels of math, many of the concepts are abstract, and although they can be described mathematically, the take a much higher level of abstraction, not only to understand, but to apply as well; a much higher level than, ‘You have five apples and you give Tom two apples. How many apples do you have left?’

 

What you are asking me to do is more like explaining the formula for hydroplaning based on vehicle weight, speed, tread pattern, and water depth. And give you a formula that will accurately predict at what speed and at what point a vehicle will lose tread contact with the pavement based on all the variables. Possible, I assure you, but not as easy as the ‘take away two apple’ scenario.

[47MartialMan]

So, does this mean that most Japanese stuff is taken from outside sources?

 

Alot of Japanese culture was influenced by China. The Japanese written language is taken from China's written language.

 

SSSh, people that love Japanese culture and etc., may hear and freak

[thaiboxerken]

I'm just wondering if you have anything testable to claim. If there is any real use for training in "ki" methodology that has an advantage over mundane training methods.

 

People have shown me chi tricks.. yet, I have been able to duplicate these tricks without belief in chi. Is it because I am subconsciously a chi master?

 

Why is it that many martial artists that don't train in chi are just as successful as those that do?

[47MartialMan]

JEM.. you are rather vague with your definition of Ki. It seems like you are evasive.

 

Like I said, Ueshiba put it best:

 

Rely not on the brush (written word) or mouth (oral explaination) for understanding the technique.

 

Attain enlightenment through practice.

 

To see what I am up against, please choose the most difficult technique or form you have ever learned and then type it out, a set of instructions, if you will, so that when I read it, I will be able to understand the instructions and perform the technique exactly as it should be done, with out actually seeing any pictures, or video clips, or 'live instruction'. With nothing in my hand but your set of instructions, would you feel confidant that I would be able to read the instructions, practice by myself without any feed back and then perform the technique exactly to your expectations?

 

Here I am trying to explain a principal or concept, something that is to be applied to a technique to enhance its effectiveness.

 

What you are asking me to do is more like explaining the formula for hydroplaning based on vehicle weight, speed, tread pattern, and water depth. And give you a formula that will accurately predict at what speed and at what point a vehicle will lose tread contact with the pavement based on all the variables. Possible, I assure you, but not as easy as the ‘take away two apple’ scenario.

 

So, in the analogy of someone trying to explain the existence of Christ or God, then the writings in the Bible, cannot give any understanding?

[47MartialMan]

I'm just wondering if you have anything testable to claim. If there is any real use for training in "ki" methodology that has an advantage over mundane training methods.

 

People have shown me chi tricks.. yet, I have been able to duplicate these tricks without belief in chi. Is it because I am subconsciously a chi master?

 

Why is it that many martial artists that don't train in chi are just as successful as those that do?

 

Same pondering thoughts here

[JEM618]

JEM.. you are rather vague with your definition of Ki. It seems like you are evasive.

 

Like I said, Ueshiba put it best:

 

Rely not on the brush (written word) or mouth (oral explaination) for understanding the technique.

 

Attain enlightenment through practice.

 

To see what I am up against, please choose the most difficult technique or form you have ever learned and then type it out, a set of instructions, if you will, so that when I read it, I will be able to understand the instructions and perform the technique exactly as it should be done, with out actually seeing any pictures, or video clips, or 'live instruction'. With nothing in my hand but your set of instructions, would you feel confidant that I would be able to read the instructions, practice by myself without any feed back and then perform the technique exactly to your expectations?

 

Here I am trying to explain a principal or concept, something that is to be applied to a technique to enhance its effectiveness.

 

What you are asking me to do is more like explaining the formula for hydroplaning based on vehicle weight, speed, tread pattern, and water depth. And give you a formula that will accurately predict at what speed and at what point a vehicle will lose tread contact with the pavement based on all the variables. Possible, I assure you, but not as easy as the ‘take away two apple’ scenario.

 

So, in the analogy of someone trying to explain the existence of Christ or God, then the writings in the Bible, cannot give any understanding?

 

Ha! The crux of the mystery! It certainly can be explained to those are at least willing to listen or try to understand.

 

There are those who say they don’t believe in God and don’t want to hear anything about it.

 

And there are those who say they are willing to listen, they listen and go from there.

 

But let’s not get caught up with the God analogy, because that will throw the whole topic off. ‘No one has ever seen God, so their belief is based on faith, not fact, etc.’

 

Let’s go back to the math and hydroplaning example; there are specific formulas that can’t predict an outcome, facts. Now if I tell you that I can tell you at exactly what speed a vehicle will lose contact with the road surface based on all the variables plugged into a formula, and you refuse to listen, saying it’s not possible, or some kind of trick, well that’s the end of it right?

 

But if you say, OK, show me, that opens up the doors.

 

Now, before you get all excited and ask me to prove ‘ki’ is real, and get my million dollar prize, stop.

 

If you want to continue that discussion, let’s do it in a logical gentlemanly fashion.

 

Cheers

[JEM618]

Excellent points Ken.

I'm just wondering if you have anything testable to claim. If there is any real use for training in "ki" methodology that has an advantage over mundane training methods.

 

I PMed this to another forum member a while back:

 

I practiced a few martial arts in the US; Arnis, a little BJJ, and TKD. In the 10 years or so I spent training, not once did any of the teachers touch upon the spiritual or mental aspect of the arts. Even after attaining 2nd Dan in TKD, I still felt something was missing. Although my sparring skills were pretty good, I still felt there was something lacking; I thought there should be more to it that kicking and punching.

 

It took all of 20 minutes with a teacher that incorporated ‘ki’ as part of training to realize that this was the ‘missing link’.

 

Before coming to Japan I would spar regularly 2-3 times a week with good but not great results. After two years in Japan, I returned to my TKD dojo in the states for a visit. And I was asked if I wanted to spar in class, with TKD of course. After a two year layoff from sparring with practice TDK practice limited to stretching and throwing some kicks every now and then, I sparred better than I ever had. I paired of with several of my old partners and other students that had moved up in rank while I was gone, all of them I might add, sparring 2-3 days a week during my absence.

 

How was that possible? How was I able to improve my sparring by not sparring? I used ‘ki’ for lack of a better term. (It is what I used based on what I believe ‘ki’ is as opposed to what someone else may perceive it to be - which is why there are so many debates over the whole ‘ki’ issue.)

 

Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, has several ‘uchi deshi’, or full time live in students. When he felt he had finally developed that art enough, he decided it was time to spread his teaching all over the world, starting in the West.

 

He chose Koichi Tohei, one of his finest students. Not only was he a great technician but a tactician as well; he could execute any technique flawlessly and even better still, adapt it to any situation.

 

So Tohei headed off to Hawaii performing demonstrations for the Hawaiian Police and the U.S. military. Tohei was sadly disappointed with the results. In Japan he was one of the best, even though he was small, even for a Japanese, standing only 5’6”, he was unbeatable. Imagine someone standing 5’6” facing off with highly trained police or military personnel with a 100 pound weight advantage. For the most part, he did OK, but he really had some trouble with ‘the western giants’.

 

He returned to Japan despondent coming to the realization that physical strength and the best technique are not the complete package. After some soul searching and consideration of his training prior to his joining Ueshiba, he decided to incorporate ‘ki’ training to supplement what Ueshiba had taught him.

 

A few years later, he returned to Hawaii for more demonstrations and this time around was truly untouchable. In fact, the Hawaiian police were so impressed that incorporated aikido as a part of police training for all their officers.

 

So, that being said, I would have to say, ‘Yes’. I assume your avatar is a picture of you. And from what you’ve said, you just turned 31. I used to look like you 9 years ago, rock solid and buffed, but having turned 40 this past summer, well, I just don’t look like that anymore… . So what would happen if we were to square off? I don’t know, honestly. But I must say, pound for pound you’d have the weight advantage, and you are 9 years younger than me. Conventional wisdom would say the 40 year old guy is gonna get his * kicked, and that might be true, a fact based on perception that can’t be disputed. However, if I was cornered, with no chance of escaping or avoiding the conflict, I would have to say having studied ‘ki’ for so long that the odds might be a little better than average than if I was the average ‘Joe’. [PLEASE!!! Don’t misinterpret this as a challenge or an, ‘I’m better than you’ or ‘I could kick your butt’ kind of thing.] (If you want to read an interesting story, search for the post about the day I met my sensei. I was 31 at the time and he was 57 and I got my a** kicked)

People have shown me chi tricks.. Yet, I have been able to duplicate these tricks without belief in chi. Is it because I am subconsciously a chi master?

 

Well, according to Tohei, we are born with ‘ki’ and each of us can develop it to its maximum potential, so in a way we are all ‘ki’ masters. I.e., masters of our own ‘ki’. Simply put, if we both own dogs, and I train my a lot, and you don’t train your at all, well, I’ll get more out of my dog, so to speak.

Why is it that many martial artists that don't train in chi are just as successful as those that do?

 

Well, a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch. (Not putting down other arts, but many of them are based simple mechanics, right?) Just look at the story about Tohei. He practiced the original style of aikido, what’s known as aiki-kai aikido, and on his first trip to Hawaii, was disappointed. After applying the principals of ‘ki’ to aikido, he went back and did much better. You can also look at my more humble story about returning to my TKD dojo and doing well after a two year layoff. And, I must add, the sparring was strictly TDK, no aikido, I just applied the principals I had studied.

 

Again, thanks for the interesting post, Ken, you got my brain in overdrive!

 

Have a good day.

[47MartialMan]

It wasn't ki that had you spar better. As one studies/trains, their abilities should increase. You had a mental refreshening to tkae a different mental attitude towards it. Given that you trained in anither art, gave you a new outlook/attiude. Also, perhaps you had "learned" how to examined how to perform TKD better.

 

I had noticed, once I went to another art and came back to one previously I was better in the previous from the other in future helping me mentally.

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, like MartialMan said.. isn't it likely that the TKD hero you describe simply benefitted from cross-training in another art and that the "ki" belief concidentally happened to be part of it. I mean, if he trained in Brazillian Jujitsu, for example, would he not have improved his TKD as well?

 

Also, I can understand your "missing" link, some people have a desire for the supernatural in their lives. The mundane world just doesn't seem to be fantastic enough for those people. The Ki filled that void for you, but any other belief could've filled that void. In indonesia, they practice a form of magic that might've worked for you. It's my opinion that this Ki is simply a mental construct in which you are placing your fears and doubts into and taking confidence and peace from. Hey, if it works for you, fine.

 

We're still not talking about anything testable, just your feelings and internal beliefs.