Differences between Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do

[try81]

I have heard the Tang Soo Do system was created by Hwang Kee. He knew the Korean Martial Art, Tae Kyuck, a kicking art (not sure of the spelling) and combined with his knowledge of Northern and Southern Shaolin hand techniques.

 

I heard he spent 10-15 years traveling China and traing with many Wu-Shu masters. When he returned to Korea he combined his knowledge of Taekyuck and Wushu.

 

Tang Soo Do translates to 'Way of the China Hand"

 

and is 60% Tae Kyuck, 30% North Shaolin Long Fist. 10% Southern Shaolin Boxing

 

Others have claimed he trained in Shotokon Karate and copied it just because Tang Soo Do has some of the same exact forms. People don't realize a lot of these forms orginated from Shaolin Amimals (Pyung Ahn-Turtle) (Naihanchi - Horse) (Bassai - Snake) (Sip Soo - Tiger or Bear) (Jindo, Ro Hai - Crane) (Kong Sang Koon - Eagle or Dragon) They did not originate in Korea or Japan, instead in China. I have talked to US Shaolin Sifus (Gold Sash) and they have shown me forms that look exactly like TSD forms.

[rmclain]

The Pyung Ahn forms were created by Yasutsune Itosu around 1900, based on the Kong Son Kun form and some other techniques. It has really nothing to do with an animal. Originally, Kong Son Kun was called, "Kusanku" which means, "Viewing the sky." Tode Sakugawa (1733-1815) created this form from Chinese envoy named "Kusanku" around 1756. So, I suppose someone could argue those techniques came from China because of Kusanku.

 

Most schools in Korea used the term Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do to describe the arts they practiced following WWII.

 

The kicking art you wrote about is "Tae Kyun."

 

R. McLain

[try81]

I have heard Kong Sang Koon was a Chinese General living in the 1700's. His student then created the form and named it after his master.

 

The Pyung Ahn system was at one time a single form. Even the traditional order we follow was not the orginal order. I beleive it began with Sah Dan and continued in an order that I don't know. I heard it was later split into 2 forms, then into the 5 we have now. A Wushu Sifu that I have met, began his martial arts training in TSD. We said he was later surprised to see his Grandmaster (an authentic Shaolin Monk that emigrated to the US) teach the original Pyung Ahn form.

 

I have read that many Martial Historians compare the TSD forms to animal styles.

 

I have heard Naihanchi is "Knight on Horse" everyone has heard this description. I have also heard it is also known as stepping on Rice paddies.

 

All Asian martial arts originated in Shaolin. Shaolin Martial arts have also been said to have originated in India.

[benkendrick]

I have heard Kong Sang Koon was a Chinese General living in the 1700's. His student then created the form and named it after his master.

 

The Pyung Ahn system was at one time a single form. Even the traditional order we follow was not the orginal order. I beleive it began with Sah Dan and continued in an order that I don't know. I heard it was later split into 2 forms, then into the 5 we have now. A Wushu Sifu that I have met, began his martial arts training in TSD. We said he was later surprised to see his Grandmaster (an authentic Shaolin Monk that emigrated to the US) teach the original Pyung Ahn form.

 

I have read that many Martial Historians compare the TSD forms to animal styles.

 

I have heard Naihanchi is "Knight on Horse" everyone has heard this description. I have also heard it is also known as stepping on Rice paddies.

 

All Asian martial arts originated in Shaolin. Shaolin Martial arts have also been said to have originated in India.

 

If you read Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee's first book (The English Version), he attributes the creation of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs to a "Mister Idos" (in the back in the section on Hyungs). It's my understanding that this is simply a mistranslation of the name from Japanese to Korean to English of the last name mentioned earlier "Itosu" Sensei. (Probably because the two names sounds so similar)

 

There have even been articles published in MA magazines (I believe the article I saw was in BlackBelt Magazine) that dispell the explanation you've presented. In fact, I read an interview w/ GM Hwang Kee where he said that he found a book on Karate (most likely Okinawan Karate) in a library while working in China that outlined the 5 Pyung Ahn hyung which he later decided to incorporate into his TSD.

 

From my research and experience the base forms (The forms you mentioned) of MDK TSD are most likely Korean Versions of Shotokan kata, which were nothing more than Japanese versions of the older Okinawan Kata.

 

Now the Chil Sung and Uk Ro(sp?) Hyung are a different story entirely...

[rmclain]

try81,

 

Right, Kusanku (Kong SOn Kun) was a military envoy from China to Okinawa around 1756. Karate (Tode) Sakugawa created this form based on the martial art he learned from Kusanku. This original form, now know in some places as Kusanku Dai is the longest form from Okinawa. Two more versions of the forms were created later, Kusanku Sho and Shiho Kusanku. The last two were created by Yasutsune "Anko" Itosu.

 

Itosu created the five Pinan (Pyung Ahn) forms around 1900 based on the form Kusanku as beginner-intermediate forms for students. I've never read any credible source or any credible teacher that indicated these were one form. There apparently as been a switch of Pyung Ahn Cho Dan and Yi Dan, as Pyung Ahn Yi dan was taught first originally. Pyung Ahn Cho Dan (now) is definitely easier for beginners to learn.

 

Naihanchi translates to "Fighting Holding Your Ground. Itosu was famous for this Naihanchi forms (he created #3). He was reputed to be able to place himself in the horse stance and no one could move him. This is probably the reason these forms later gained the name Tekki in Japan and Chulki in Korea, which mean, "Iron Horse." That plus he was on eof the first to publicly demonstrate Karate in Okinawa.

 

I've also read somewhere that Master Hwang Kee learned the Pyung Ahn forms from a book.

 

R. McLain

[tommarker]

In Hwang Kee's book on the history of the Moo Duk Kwan, he essentially admits learning the forms from books he had access to at libraries.

 

His time spent in china was spent learning Yang Style Tai Chi and some shaolin from what I can remember of the book. However, this time was fairly brief as well. I can only imagine that he took this knowledge, combined with what he saw in book and training with other Korean karate experts and came up with his own method of Tang Soo Do.

 

Of course, that has evolved over the years significantly as well. Heck, the people who follow Hwang Doju Nim's lineage don't even call it Tang Soo Do anymore, and it is now Soo Bahk Do. Hence the introduction of Hwa Sun, Yuk Ro, and Chil Sung hyungs.

 

The story of the history of TSD has changed a bit over the last 8-10 years as "new" info has been released/admitted/whatever. To me, it is somewhat moot since it has radically evolved so much over the years.

[miguksaram]

Ok..maybe I missed something in both of the "masters'" posts, but I yet to hear either one of them explain the difference between TKD and TSD.

 

First of all TSD predates TKD. It was one of the few kwans that split during the formation of TKD. TSD, still follows, for better use of a term, Korean karate. They still practice the same forms that they did when Hwan Kee first conceived the kwan. TKD, though born from karate has evolved into its own seperate art. Where the emphasis of TKD is in it's kicking techniques, TSD tends to emphasize a good balance of both hand and leg techniques. TSD is a bit more circular in its motions, due to its chuan'fa influence, as oppose to TKD's more linear movements.

[TangSooGuy]

Ok..maybe I missed something in both of the "masters'" posts, but I yet to hear either one of them explain the difference between TKD and TSD.

 

First of all TSD predates TKD. It was one of the few kwans that split during the formation of TKD. TSD, still follows, for better use of a term, Korean karate. They still practice the same forms that they did when Hwan Kee first conceived the kwan. TKD, though born from karate has evolved into its own seperate art. Where the emphasis of TKD is in it's kicking techniques, TSD tends to emphasize a good balance of both hand and leg techniques. TSD is a bit more circular in its motions, due to its chuan'fa influence, as oppose to TKD's more linear movements.

 

I'd tend to agree witht that....again, in general... the problem with classifying it that way is that not all TSD schools or TKD schools will follow this pattern.

 

You'll find TSD schools that fit closer into the TKD mold you described, and you can still find "traditional" TKD schools that practice the original hyungs.

 

With the addition of the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms that many TSD students (but not all) now practice, it can't be said that all TSD students practice only the same forms that existed when Hwang kee first started...

 

 

 

..The truth of the matter is that the Korean government basically wanted ALL korean martial arts to be united as "Tae Kwon Do", and may Kwans and/or styles that didn't use the name before began to...

 

If you ask the difference between modern TKD and TSD though, I'd tend to agree with the above post.

 

 

 

You will, generally, see more willingness toa ccept Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan influences in TSD than in TKD, which, in general, sought to remove itself from these influences and become a more uniquely Korean art...

 

...as for the emphasis on legs vs. hands, i'd tend to agree, but with more and more sport competition, I'm sad to say that alot of TSD is being driven that way as well...

 

I'd also say you're more likely to see more grappling and joint locking techniques in a TSD school as opposed to TKD, but that, too will depend on the instructor.

 

The problem isn't that there are no differences, just that one has to speak in generalities when dealing with these differences.

 

To do otherwise is to imply that all TKD and TSD schools can be fit into a particular mold, and I just don'tthink that is the case.

 

As has been said, there are TKD schools I could walk into and feel at home, while there are TSD schools I could enter and feel like a complete stranger to their method of practicing the art.

 

Personally, I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to categorize the differences between styles, to attempt to explain why one is better than the other, etc....

 

The longer I train, the mre I realize that all martial arts are essentially the same, no matter how much people try to differentiate them....

 

I've yet to see a technique from another style that I could not easily adapt into my own, and have yet to come up witha technique unique to TSD, that could not be easily adapted to other systems as well....

[TSDMGK_K40]

Ok..maybe I missed something in both of the "masters'" posts, but I yet to hear either one of them explain the difference between TKD and TSD.

 

Part of being a 'master' is knowing when not to put your foot in your mouth. Recognizing that fact, I chose to comment on only the things which I could talk about intelligently, namely that in my experience I noticed that progression from 10th Gup to Cho Dan happens faster in most TKD than TSD, and that most of the TKD I've been exposed to has much less emphasis on hand techniques than TSD.

 

Now seeing as though I am fully intent to not make any statements without considerable knowledge I will say this, I have 23+ years of TSD experience, and ZERO days of TKD experience. Everything I state is based on the TKD that I've seen and the TKD practitioners that I know.

First of all TSD predates TKD. It was one of the few kwans that split during the formation of TKD. TSD, still follows, for better use of a term, Korean karate. They still practice the same forms that they did when Hwan Kee first conceived the kwan. TKD, though born from karate has evolved into its own seperate art. Where the emphasis of TKD is in it's kicking techniques, TSD tends to emphasize a good balance of both hand and leg techniques. TSD is a bit more circular in its motions, due to its chuan'fa influence, as oppose to TKD's more linear movements.

 

I believe it to be true that TSD predates TKD, but I don't bother arguing that because there are certain TKD practitioners that adamantly dispute this at all costs (see Glen at tkd digest), so yes I agree with you, but I won't bother arguing with anyone who disputes this. Most of the original TSD system is based on the traditional Japanese/Okinawan hyungs, Pyung Ahn (Heian), Passia (Pal Chi), Kong Son Kun (Kyonkyo) and the traditional basic techniques of Shotokan. There is more of an emphasis on the push-pull hip motion in TSD than Shotokan, that is the most noticable difference regarding the basic techniques. This foundation built on Japanese/Okinawan techniques is no suprise, seeing as the South Korea was occupied by the Japanese until the early 1940's.

 

In the years since TSD was founded, the late KJN Hwang Kee introduced more matierial with a decidedly Chinese flavor, namely the Chil Sung, Yuk Rho, Hwa Sun Hyungs. Now I know the Moo Duk Kwan company line is that these are Korean Hyungs, based on the new Soo Bahk Do emphasis. That is all well and good, but any experienced practitioner can easily see the chinese influence on these new SBD hyungs.

[miguksaram]

I'd tend to agree witht that....again, in general... the problem with classifying it that way is that not all TSD schools or TKD schools will follow this pattern.

 

You'll find TSD schools that fit closer into the TKD mold you described, and you can still find "traditional" TKD schools that practice the original hyungs.

 

Any TKD schools that practice original hyungs are not practicing TKD, they are practicing the kwan system (Ie Chungdokwan, Jidokwan, Ohdokwan, etc) Also, I should mention that when refering to TKD I should be more specific and say WTF TKD or KKW TKD. I am not comparing to ITF TKD due to the fact that ITF TKD still holds to its tradtional karate roots.

 

So with that said, if the TKD school is not teaching Taeguks as their patterns then they are not practicing what is now considered WTF TKD or modern TKD. There is really no such thing as "Traditional" TKD. That would simply be Korean karate or original kwan system.

 

 

With the addition of the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms that many TSD students (but not all) now practice, it can't be said that all TSD students practice only the same forms that existed when Hwang kee first started...

 

 

 

..The truth of the matter is that the Korean government basically wanted ALL korean martial arts to be united as "Tae Kwon Do", and may Kwans and/or styles that didn't use the name before began to...

 

Truth of the matter is that it wasn't the government, but the kwan leaders themselves who wanted to organize their arts under one unified association. This started shortly after the Korean war and continued through the 1950's, with many problems. It wasn't until 1959 that they lobbied the government for help in the formation of the KTA.

You will, generally, see more willingness to accept Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan influences in TSD than in TKD, which, in general, sought to remove itself from these influences and become a more uniquely Korean art...

 

Agreed. WTF TKD has since branched off and developed its own uniqueness of a martial art.

...as for the emphasis on legs vs. hands, i'd tend to agree, but with more and more sport competition, I'm sad to say that alot of TSD is being driven that way as well...

 

Why sad? This is a good thing. Do you know why TKD is so popular? Simply because it is well known through its sports affiliation with Olympics. This is not a bad thing. The bad thing is when you get chump instructors who * the art. If you have good TSD instructors who also do sport then this is good. It gets the art in the main stream and that in return helps in further development of the art itself. There has to be a balance naturally...too much sport or too much "tradition" will inevitably kill an art.

I'd also say you're more likely to see more grappling and joint locking techniques in a TSD school as opposed to TKD, but that, too will depend on the instructor.

 

Well I agree with you that it depends on the instructor simply because neither of two arts had that in the original curriculum. It is definetly something that is brought in from an outside source.

 

 

The problem isn't that there are no differences, just that one has to speak in generalities when dealing with these differences.

 

But there are specific differences if both arts are taught on a "traditional" basis. TSD does not have a walking stance. TKD chambers lower for punches. TSD sidekick is more "Okinawan" with its chambering. The way the execute blocks and philosophy behind techniques are different.

Personally, I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to categorize the differences between styles, to attempt to explain why one is better than the other, etc....

 

I totally agree with you here as far as A is better than B. That is why I posted my comments. The original question was what was the difference. However, the answers received were, more along the lines of I don't like this or that of A or B is not as good because of this. Who cares? That is not what the person asked.

The longer I train, the mre I realize that all martial arts are essentially the same, no matter how much people try to differentiate them....

 

Unfortunately it is human nature to spot the differences in two items instead of looking for the same qualities.

I've yet to see a technique from another style that I could not easily adapt into my own, and have yet to come up witha technique unique to TSD, that could not be easily adapted to other systems as well....

 

Ahmen brother.