Whose contributions are greater--West or East?

[KungFuMan]

"depth can be overated"

 

"Overated" by you maybe, and others - who have never gone deep enough to judge - but not by me and many others who are on our way. I suppose it comes down to the individual and where he or she places his or her own particular emphasis.

 

I do understand why there are people who do not want to commit a lifetime to a single (and/or related) art(s) to really experience its/their "depths". After all you can learn so much self defense in a relatively short period of time in your local Krave Maga, BJJ or Kick Boxing school - all of which, have by the way, been greatly influenced by Eastern martial arts whose influence is ever present in many "modern" western selfdefense systems as well.

 

So, for many people and the reality in which they live, the "depths" are irrelevant and that is fair enough. However, the fact is that the depths EXIST and make many oriental martial arts formidable once mastered and it is irrelevant if there are a million more bjj masters than there are Praying Mantis ones.

 

If one cannot see "real reasons" for the existance of certain forms or training methods, it does not mean that these reasons do not exist. And here is why I made references to "experts".

 

Also, I believe that there are a lot more "experts" in the West than in the East....just look around at the plague of Mcdojos. Of course, they exist in the East as well, but nothing like you get here in the West.

 

Also, martial arts have been in existance in China for far longer than the Shaolin temple, for at least 5000 years and probably a lot longer than that. Most of what I refer to as depth has its origins in China and of course India which is still considered East rather than West.

 

KFM

[Shane]

that is a hard one, they both have gave so much so I'm going with undecided on this one!!!!!!!!

[Synaesthesia]

The western personal fighting arts have not contributed at much in the form of direct traditions. This has lead to the misconception that they were somehow less advanced. That's not true, they were very well adapted for their time and place. The only problem is that they didn't maintain a lineage of personal combat as much as warfighting.

 

That being said, the western martial arts are vastly the predominant fighting arts of our world. (The modern assault rifle, the smart bomb, the fission bomb, the hydrogen bomb etc etc etc.)

[SevenStar]

 

"Overated" by you maybe, and others - who have never gone deep enough to judge - but not by me and many others who are on our way. I suppose it comes down to the individual and where he or she places his or her own particular emphasis.

 

basically. It's all emphasis. And some of it really isn't necesary. As an example, all of the theoorizing of principles you see in CMA. For what? other styles have the same principles, but as they don't spend time theorizing everything, they don't have names for it. two common taiji principles - yielding and borrowing are found in thai boxing, bjj and judo, however these principles aren't named, merely taught. definitions of different energies - a judoka doesn't know what peng is, but they use it in several throws. neither a bjj guy or a judoka know what zang is, but they use it all the time. Zuo, Hua, Di....we use all of those. we share the same principle, but haven't gone to the depth of defining it - because there's really no point to it.

 

on philosophical and spiritual levels, I have books and I go to church. I don't need MA for that aspect of my life. Once again, that depth is useless to me.

 

I do understand why there are people who do not want to commit a lifetime to a single (and/or related) art(s) to really experience its/their "depths". After all you can learn so much self defense in a relatively short period of time in your local Krave Maga, BJJ or Kick Boxing school - all of which, have by the way, been greatly influenced by Eastern martial arts whose influence is ever present in many "modern" western selfdefense systems as well.

 

it's not a committment issue at all. I will be doing bjj, judo and MT for years. It's been three years so far and will continue for another 50. I've spent several years in longfist, and several in karate - I'd still be training karate had my coach not moved back to japan. Even still, when he comes to town, we train together, and I am planning a trip to japan in the near future.

 

So, for many people and the reality in which they live, the "depths" are irrelevant and that is fair enough. However, the fact is that the depths EXIST and make many oriental martial arts formidable once mastered and it is irrelevant if there are a million more bjj masters than there are Praying Mantis ones.

 

okay, now by depth I think you are referring to techniques. So, tell me - what is it about said depths that make the art formidable?

 

If one cannot see "real reasons" for the existance of certain forms or training methods, it does not mean that these reasons do not exist. And here is why I made references to "experts".

 

actually, in the old days, an art having several forms was unheard of. most styles had one or two forms. The rest was training methods and the training itself. That approach is awesome.

 

Also, I believe that there are a lot more "experts" in the West than in the East....just look around at the plague of Mcdojos. Of course, they exist in the East as well, but nothing like you get here in the West.

 

such experts are everywhere. I don't think the difference is in martial understanding, it's in greed. several people who know nothing, but want money will open schools here. In the east, they will not.

 

Also, martial arts have been in existance in China for far longer than the Shaolin temple, for at least 5000 years and probably a lot longer than that. Most of what I refer to as depth has its origins in China and of course India which is still considered East rather than West.

 

sure does. shucai chiao has a *disputable* history going back 5000 years. as for india, check out what I said about alexander. but heck, even prior to the existence of indian ma, it's said that the egyptians had an art based on a crocodile god or theirs, or something. I don't think origin alone would count as depth.

[Judo Warrior]

I believe Wrestling and Boxing was created by either the Egyptians or the Greeks, ( I personally think the Egyptians did). I guess The East and The west are both good contributors.

[longarm25]

The chicken or the egg??

[KungFuMan]

SevenStar,

 

We have to agree to differ on the opinions each of us has presented.

 

However, about the relevance of the depth, to the formidability of Chinese martial arts, I would say that if after what seem to be years of MA experience you don't know this, then if I answer, you will either not understand or not agree. Either way, this will lead to a prolonged discussion that will not go anywhere, as I have seen it happen with you and others, in other threads.

 

So I think if you are really interested in the real depth and formidability of chinese martial arts then find a GOOD master and train with him for many years. That is the best way to find out. I suspect however that you won't do that because, one, your belief system is not "geared" for deep studies of CMAs, and two, you are very happy and satisfied with your current training that better suits your personal mindset and beliefs.

 

KFM

[47MartialMan]

First of all, I believe that you are making some incorrect assumptions, but I'll get to that in a moment. I believe that the East still has the greatest influence on martial arts as we are discussing them here in this forum. Now to what I said earlier:

 

1) The Chinese were very clinical and as scientific as the technology allowed them to be in the development of the martial arts as early as 1000 years ago. The Chinese five element theory and the meridian and acupoint theories will back up my argument here.

 

Yeah, but India and Egypt has histories/armies long past China.

 

2) The Okinawans as well as the Chinese realized that the better shape you were in the better chance you had of successfully defending yourself. They had devices that were used for weight training and endurance training hundreds of years ago. Look up hojo undo on the internet to see what I'm talking about.

 

Ditto

 

3) Every culture has some form of boxing, wrestling and foot fighting in varying degrees. Do some research and you will see this to be true.

 

Agreed.

[KungFuMan]

As far as I know both India and Egypt are still considered East.

 

KFM

[Drunken Monkey]

and chinese history goes back quite far.

 

the first hereditary dynasty was about 4000 years ago.

 

before that the neolithic age of ancient china was still pretty advanced having fired pottery, woven cloths and domesticated animals.

 

i think it's more true to say that eygpt and china had organised armies/fighting forces at pretty much the same time.