Getting Hit

[Angus]

Hi everyone,

 

I was at sparring class last night for karate and found that i am having a good deal of trouble. Not only aren't we allowed to hit people in the head or hard, we aren't allowed to attack the legs unless sweeping. I just don't think i can get used to this without damaging my good fighting techniques. I find this sort of control really hard. I almost lost my teeth last night cos i tried a kick that wasn't meant to be stopped mid-air, and i ended up getting kicked in the neck (2 inches under my mouth).

 

I don't mind getting hit, but it seems to me that a lot of people do and it shows in their techniques that they would never hit anyone even if they were trying to cos they've never done it before. I got a real scare last night, but i see getting hit as part and parcel of learning to fight - whereas the dude that hit me was all apologetic.

 

On my side though, i don't wanna hit these people because they are not used to it. I'm in quite pickle.

 

What are your thoughts people?

 

Angus

 

 

[egarlock]

Range, range, range. Without knowing this, everything is pretty much useless.

 

As for kicking, don't ever pull the kick and in effect, change the mechanics. You get hit, alot. To pull this off without killing your training partner you need to learn range. By doing this you learn two things, how to throw the kick, not pull it, and range. As a secondary, you learn what the heck to do when your opponent evades the whole thing. Take a look at the MuayThai round kick and see how it's practiced.

 

I feel there is only one time to pull a kick and that is to tag your partner to say "hey" you missed this. Useful for teaching, but not much else.

[Tim Greer]

This evening, when sparring with some partners, we were really wanting to do some Ju Jutsu and tai Jutsu moves on each other. We (my usual sparring partners) do _not_ like to hold back, at all. However, we also don't want to hurt each other. You can't exactly do a lot of locks, throws and whatnot, without hurting someone... and who wants to 1/2 ass it? I agree with what egarlock said, it's about as good as you can get without hurting someone, especially people that don't know the risks, aren't used to being really hit and really hitting. You have to find some type of happy medium that will satisfy you, not hinder your development and not get your opponant (or you) hurt.

 

My sparring partners and I all agree, we don't like and will not use padding or any protection. It's not natural enough. Yet, still, there's simply so many things that can't be done. And, as we all know, it's not always fun to practice these and get used to them without applying them in some realistic manner -- which accounts for the risk factor and that's going to be a reality. I think, you're going to need to get together with some people outside of the school.

 

You're all going to have to know and test your limits and with each other and develop a sound routine for doing the hard core sparring (if you want to call it sparring). This isn't too difficult, but you have to know you can trust these people can they can trust you. Once you get a good routine, people will get hurt, hit, whatever... that's life, I don't mind it personally and neither do my partners. This is not for all (or most) people. It is risky. You can surely still develop ideas based on the foundation you know, without needing to apply it on someone. Obviously, no matter what, depending on the technique you're using, it simply can not be used on someone in any realistic manner without great danger.

 

People can get their neck broken, their Trachea collapse and suffocate, and many other things that are very real and often result in death. Of course, you can also use your fingers to direct them and throw them down, forward or backward if you have them in that position anyway to execute a throat attack, for example. It's often just as effective, but safer and even fun, to do things like control people with one of their fingers, or yours. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, where you have someone lay on their stomach, put their arms out forward, you grab their last finger or two and lift while their forearm is level on the ground -- they are stuck. They can't get up or turn or get out of it -- not without doing themselves harm -- no effort on your part, no harm to them -- and impressive at parties -- the big guy that challenged your claim that you could hold him down with his one pinky (that owes you a beer now), is intimidated. heh, heh. That goes back to the throat attack. Really, for most people, anything that involved the chin or nose... they are your puppet.

 

You can also do different things to develop your skill without hurting people. Somewhat like preparing yourself. For example, concntrate and develop some things to lead into many techniques and make them become more effective. Such as, manipulate things that every human is vulnerable to -- their instinct. For a working example; some people are too large to realistically use a wrist lock on. Their arms and wrists are too think, too much bulk, too strong, whatever. Sure, some things work against people of any size or proportion, and some are *supposed to*, but don't. So, get used to taking them off balance, distracting them, etc. This only helps with people that wouldn't pose a problem anyway.

 

If someone's too big and strong to easily take to the ground, throw your hand in their face (or towards it), they instinctually move their head back and lean a bit, by then you're taking them down since the weight has shifted and you've also distracted them, which is also helpful to open yourself up to more options. Save the brutal realities for people that can handle it, are experienced and know the risks and agree to them, and try other things when your options are more limited. You can come up with all sorts of useful theories and applications, simply because you had no other alternatives, perhaps. This is a chance to advance yourself in other ways, to take advantage of it. Just some basic (and probably obvious) ideas to maybe give you something to go off of.

 

 

[egarlock]

If you want to know what "real" sparring is all about, check out DogBrothers inc.

 

http://www.dogbrothers.com/index1.htm

 

These guys, and crazy friends, go at it full steam with both weapons and empty hands and with just enough protection to be "sane".

 

Disclaimer - I am not affiliated with these guys...yet.

[Karateka]

I am in Shito Ryu Karate so I know what you are talking about. Trust me, what you are learning now is better than what you have ever learned. Now, you can have all your speed and power, but you must control it. Then, you truly know you can hit someone. In my old kickboxing we went all out, and we would hit, but my power would not be there. Then when I joined Karate, all the power was there, and I didn't even hit the guy. It was great! Now, in situations, you can pull great fakes, and have more control over your body.

 

 

[thaiboxerken]

If you are sparring, the goal should be to learn, not to win. I have this happen all the time, I'll spar with a karateka and he'll tag me all over the place. The thing is, the way he tags me is not realistic since there is no way he could get power with his little backhand attacks. I throw a Muay Thai kick with no power and he'll block it with his hand, I know that if I threw it with power his hand would be broken. If you spar with good form and technique, winning will be hard against a person that is just trying to touch you anyway they can.

 

When the karateka and I sparred full contact, he decided he never wanted to spar with me again because he couldn't hang. He claimed I was just too tough for his punches to phase, but it wasn't that I was too tough, it was that he didn't have any power behind his punches. Yes, he still hit me many times more than compared to my hitting him, but it is obvious who was using more effective techniques. Oh, and he didn't block my kick with his hands more than once when we went full-contact.

 

 

[Angus]

Yep ken, that's what i mean....

 

i threw a Muay Thai style roundhouse to this dude's head and had to cut it off otherwise he would have been ko'd!

 

Angus

 

 

[Karateka]

I know Ken hasn't taken any Karate and Angus hasn't taken it for very long, so therefore I will not hold this against you. Ken, the man you faught clearly learned nothing from his teacher. True Karateka who live the art, are taught to generate more power then they could ever possibly have imagined. I know this for a fact. Angus, rather than switching styles during a fight, try to use the techniques that you have learned.

 

If you want more insight, read any books on traditional Martial Arts philosophy.

 

 

[thaiboxerken]

LOL. that's funny.

 

"True Karateka"

 

"generate more power than they could ever imagine"

 

whew. it was a nice laugh, thanks.

 

 

[Angus]

Hahaha, you're a classic ken.

 

To karateka though, i think i will classify myself as a freestyle martial artists instead of a karateka or kickboxer. I just don't like attaching myself to one style cos then u get too predictable. I suppose i'l cope.

 

Angus