Did the Okinawins actually fight the Samurai??

[Samurai Shotokan]

I kinda confused because I heard they fought the Samurai and how can this be proven cus we all heard stories and such. Can anyone give be a link to the history about this since I cant find it.

 

And does anyone one know about Tak Kubotu(sp) hand conditioning tape,DVD because i saw it in MA magazines?? and is it reilable

[Shorin Ryuu]

Oh boy...

 

I think the Okinawans have really propogated the myths of Okinawans fending off the samurai. It is more of a romantic, tall-tale, pride thing rather than some malicious attempt to re-write history though.

 

By the time the Satsuma (a domain in lower Japan) invaded Okinawa in 1600 (thereabouts), the Okinawan kings had already tried to enforce weapon bans, with some degrees of success. Therefore, when the Satsuma samurai invaded, it was facing a population that wasn't fully armed or used to full mobilization in the first place. The fact that the Okinawans lasted for more than a few days is a testament to their spirit, but the outcome was inevitable.

 

The samurai basically took over. I think there may have been a few tales of an Okinawan fending off a drunk/lecherous/bad samurai I'm sure from time to time, but there was never this huge guerrilla resistance that some sources would have you believe.

 

Especially over the years, the Okinawans just took it all in stride. Even before they were invaded, they started to gain a reputation as relatively peaceful people. They were in a quasi-state of Chinese fiefdom and rule by the Satsuma samurai. This was resolved by the samurai "looking the other way" when the Chinese would come and trade with them, and then things would go back to normal.

 

Relations between the two as years progressed (Okinawa and Satsuma) weren't necessarily antagonistic. As mentioned in another post, Matsumura trained in Jigen Ryu, a swordsmanship style characteristic of Satsuma samurai.

 

Like I mentioned, I'm sure you had cases of rowdy samurai, and maybe they would get knocked around by some locals or constables, and probably did some knocking around themselves from time to time.

 

Okinawa was finally formally annexed by Japan in the late 1800s.

 

Short answer: No.

[White Warlock]

Nice info, thank you for sharing Shorin Ryuu

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Nice info, thank you for sharing Shorin Ryuu

 

Yes, thanks Shorin Ryuu. That is essentially the exact same thing I understand also.

 

Stop and think about it. Realistically, can wooden farm implements used by farmers and fishermen (Okinawans) stand up to professional warriors (samauri) with weapons that could cut them in half? And knowing this, would the Okinawans do anything that would put them in a position to have to defend themselves against these warriors?

 

I don't think so.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

I think the Okinawans have really propogated the myths of Okinawans fending off the samurai. It is more of a romantic, tall-tale, pride thing rather than some malicious attempt to re-write history though.

 

I think that it's not the Okinawans who have propagated those myths. They generally tend to tell that the karate wasn't used agains the samurai and they mention the whole episode of 1609 as a sidenote in their karate histories - not as a big thing and not as any waypoint in the development of karate.

 

My guess is that the myth is actually western born. While first Okinawa-stationed GI's studied karate and the history of the island, they must have thought that karate was "logically" used against the aggressor. Then, when the GI's returned to USA, they used their romantic ideas to market their art. That's what I think about that myth.

 

There are several similar myths, born outside Japan or Okinawa and then connected to the home countries of the arts...one is that the "belt becomes black from sweat, blood and dirt gathered when training"...which is an idiotic thought if one thinks about the absolute obsession of cleanliness in Japanese culture. However, this myth is - as well as the samurai myth - alive and still told daily in dojos around the western world.

 

So, there's no truth in claims about Okinawan karateka fighting the armed samurai. It's a myth. And most probably a western-born myth.

 

Another myth: "Most kobudo weapons were originally farming tools". Actually, most of them never were farming tools. That myth was born from the Okinawan weapon ban, set by king Sho Shin in late 1400's.

 

Even more myths: "Karate was trained by peasants". Nnnnope. The early karateka (or "ti-ka" ) were nobles, officers and other high ranking citizens who interacted with Chinese merchants, ambassadors etc. and had some time to waste for learning fighting skills (for police, guardians etc. the fighting skills were a tool of profession - still are. For nobles, skills were excercise and fun - just like for most of us these days). Peasants were far too busy with their daily tasks (ask any modern farmer - and modern farmers have modern day tools!).

[Samurai Shotokan]

that Ya . Thanx for the info but no one can really know for sure i guess. But now Im confused than why did the Okinawins learn this martial art then and how did it survive hundreds of years? There has to be some TRUTH to the myth

[Jussi Häkkinen]

But now Im confused than why did the Okinawins learn this martial art

 

Check my previous post for the most probable answer. Shortly put: To use it (police, guardians etc.) and to excercise with it (nobles and others).

then and how did it survive hundreds of years? There has to be some TRUTH to the myth

 

No need to be any truth in samurai myth. Check out ballet, wrestling, boxing, classical music, oil painting...they're all hobbies, artforms or sports and have lasted for hundreds (or even thousands) of years. They're not unaltered - karate isn't either. Actually, the karate (even the Okinawan styles) that we know nowadays was developed in 1700's, 1800's and in early 1900's. That was the time of systematization of karate.

 

So, karate hasn't survived for a very long time - the tradition of empty handed fighting has. And well, for that, the Chinese influence (36 families etc.) and the location of Okinawa as a trade center do give a pretty good backround - without the need of fighting the raging samurai clans.

[Shorin Ryuu]

These are all excellent points mentioned by Jussi before I was going to bring them up.

[longarm25]

Shoshin Nagamine's book "Tales of Okinawa's reat Masters" does include a few stories of Karateka sucessfully defendig themselves from samurai

 

however these were isolated instance and there was no wide spread resistance. As previously stated all martial practice by the Okinawan people was done in secret.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

As previously stated all martial practice by the Okinawan people was done in secret.

 

Not really. The martial arts training was more like "limited to certain individuals" than "secret". Police and guardians trained for their job, nobles trained for their own reasons.

 

People have often confused the night training with "secret" training, especially because the training was often done at graveyards. However, they forget some facts:

 

1: Okinawa is a hot little island. Weather is very warm. That is the reason why heavy excercise was often performed during night time.

 

2: Graveyards usually had an area with a flat stone surface. That was an excellent training flooring before the time of dojos and "open" training. So, this had no secrecy reasons either.

 

Really many of the legends of Okinawan karate are just that - legends. They are seldom invented by Okinawans, but by outsiders who want to glorify the karate and make it something it isn't.