Old school training.

[searcher]

I was just reading an article about Shinpan Gusukuma, who was a student of Anko Itosu and he brought up something in the article that had been in the back of my mind for some time and I think it would be interesting to get some input on the subject.

 

It used to be that back in the "old days" that most instructors taught only one kata or had very few kata that they taught or thay had some "special technique" that they had mastered, so many students would go from instructor to instructor learning for a while and going on to learn with someone else. This was apparently the most widely used method of learning a lot of different skills, kata, or different secret skills, then later on around the late 1800's and early 1900's students started staying longer with a particular instructor because they had more things to teach. This inturn lead to the formation and seperation of karate into particular styles. So the question I have is why has this been allowed to happen and why is it so looked down upon when a student "school hops" and learns things from many different instructors?

 

 

 

I think this is a big issue today with so many different certifying agencies popping up today and everyone asking "Who are you certified with?" or "What degree of black belt are you?"

 

The other part of this is have we lost touch with our karate anscestors for going the route we have taken or is this the next evolution in the martial arts?

[Shorin Ryuu]

This is an interesting question, one which I ponder quite frequently, in fact.

 

Yes, in the "old" days, people would train under different masters. I might make a mention that this wasn't because each master did not know as much as they do now, but because many were encouraged to do so by their masters in order to see differing perspectives on same things or even different things. Many Shuri-te practitioners trained with Naha-te teachers, and vice versa. Many in both approaches trained in China. Sokon Matsumura is purported to have even received a menkyo kaiden in Jigen Ryu swordsmanship, but this is yet to be actually verified. Suffice it to say, he was a shining example of having studied many different ways of fighting.

 

The teaching of kata was passed down to the student where rigid adherence was first required. Later, the student was encouraged to personalize the kata to themselves. However, it was important that the student understood the principles involved first, rather than just modifying it carelessly.

 

The reason why the ryu system was passed on into Okinawan karate is actually pretty simple. When it really attracted the notice of the Japanese, Okinawan karate was in a pretty sad state. Even when the style system was not in place, there were still a lot of rivalries between some schools, although many masters and students from differing traditions were on friendly terms with each other.

 

The tightly kept secrecy of the art of te and what could be considered archaic training methods meant that it was actually close to dying out. The standardization of training methods and the more established nature of styles vs. the traditional method of student and teacher was an attempt to prevent this from happening.

 

There are other reasons for this, of course, but it comes down to that had this rigid style system not been introduced, karate would not be anywhere near as widespread or even known that much. This style system was partly responsible for and partly in response to the introduction of karate into the school system, first in Okinawa and then in Japan. There were many attempts to standardize everything, but the diverse nature of karate itself made such a thing more difficult.

 

The famous 1936 meeting of te masters is a very interesting read, if you can find it. The version of the transcript that I have is in one of Paul McCarthy's book: Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts: Uchinadi Koryu. I thought that book was good because it took a good look at karate during the early 1900s (and some before that, but the main focus was the formative years of "modern" traditional karate).

 

I for one have never been discouraged by any instructor that I have had within the past four years or so (what I consider the true start of my martial arts journey, in Kobayashi Shorin Ryu karate, Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate, Jujitsu, Iaido) from learning as much as I could. All these teachers and instructors I have trained with for varying lengths of time, some at the same time (7 of them), were very supportive and encouraging of my desire to learn anything. I probably for the foreseeable future will remain a Shorinkan Shorin Ryu practitioner, but that in no way stops me from pursuing as much as possible in other things. Plus, I suppose being in the military forces me to change instructors frequently, anyway.

 

These instructors see what many do not: Techniques differ from style to style. Principles are approached from different angles, but the principles remain the same.

 

So yeah, if people want to praise Bruce Lee for being such a revolutionary, they can. But in traditional Okinawan circles, the idea of having an open mind (the true "secret" to Jeet Kun Do, I guess) and being open to fresh perspectives is far from being new.

 

Lest the last paragraph derail the topic, let me close with one final thought.

 

I have always lamented the politics at the higher levels of karate coming from ego, money and the ryu system in Okinawa, Japan and America. At the same time, we are indebted to it for preserving what was a dying art and making it extremely popular.

 

Do I think the ryu system is a little rigid at times? Yes.

 

Do I think there should be less greed, money, etc. at the higher levels? Yes.

 

Do I think it should be dismantled? No.

 

For all of its flaws, it still serves a useful purpose. It provides some coalescion of ideas, concepts and techniques, preserves them in a manner to be transmitted to future generations, and still allows the current practitioners to modify them as they see fit or keep what is still applicable. There is a danger of doing this too much (by people who might not recognize something valuable when they see it).

 

Furthermore, there is a worry by some that some old techniques and principles may be lost. Fortunately, if you talk to a lot of highly skilled people, they say that not everything they know was shown to them, they had to figure it out on their own. I can guarantee you that no one was able to do this with a closed mind.

 

The ryu system provides an important base and launching point for many to begin their path in the martial arts. Some choose to stay within a specific style, some do not. I think the most important thing is to focus upon that which matters most: the nurturing of martial arts within yourself and the transmission of it to future generations.

 

[end rambling essay]

[harleyt26]

I was with one instructor for many years,after I had reached a very advanced black belt level with him the advanced training seemed to slow to a stop.I beleive that he was running out of new information to pass along.At that time I requested to train under other instructors as well as him,he insisted "no training outside the dojo".Of course I became stagnate in my training after a couple of years I became bored with paying my dues and not progressing in my training,I left his dojo to find a whole world of information.The instructors I train with now have more to offer than I will ever be able to learn in my lifetime.I asked one about this,he told me he tells his students "if you see something you would like to try training in go learn it then bring it back to my dojo so we can disect it and see what makes it work".That filosophy just makes much better sense to me,and I think it is a sign that a instructor is not afraid that there may be something better out there,he is very secure in his art.My decision to leave the first dojo was very difficult for me I have a very loyal nature,but you must be loyal to yourself as well as your art.And remember you started training in the arts with a goal in mind be loyal to your goals.Do not just be blindly loyal to an idea or a person that may or may not be deserving of such loyalty.

[47MartialMan]

I was with one instructor for many years,after I had reached a very advanced black belt level with him the advanced training seemed to slow to a stop.I beleive that he was running out of new information to pass along.At that time I requested to train under other instructors as well as him,he insisted "no training outside the dojo".Of course I became stagnate in my training after a couple of years I became bored with paying my dues and not progressing in my training,I left his dojo to find a whole world of information.The instructors I train with now have more to offer than I will ever be able to learn in my lifetime.I asked one about this,he told me he tells his students "if you see something you would like to try training in go learn it then bring it back to my dojo so we can disect it and see what makes it work".That filosophy just makes much better sense to me,and I think it is a sign that a instructor is not afraid that there may be something better out there,he is very secure in his art.My decision to leave the first dojo was very difficult for me I have a very loyal nature,but you must be loyal to yourself as well as your art.And remember you started training in the arts with a goal in mind be loyal to your goals.Do not just be blindly loyal to an idea or a person that may or may not be deserving of such loyalty.

 

Yeah, perhaps another good reason to cross train

[rmclain]

There is always something new to learn from somwhere else. Every style is valuable.

 

I've heard students becoming bored because they weren't learning anything "new" and evertually quit. This really tells me that they had another interest to persue or simply weren't training hard enough or looking critically at what they already had learned. No Patience. If you look at everything like a "coversheet" and that is all there is, then boredom is going to happen.

 

Even if you study several places, you should really "study" and look deeper into what you learn.

 

I've been training since the 1970's and I still learn things from basic fundamental techniques.

 

R. McLain

[47MartialMan]

There is always something new to learn from somwhere else. Every style is valuable.

 

I've heard students becoming bored because they weren't learning anything "new" and evertually quit. This really tells me that they had another interest to persue or simply weren't training hard enough or looking critically at what they already had learned. No Patience. If you look at everything like a "coversheet" and that is all there is, then boredom is going to happen.

 

Even if you study several places, you should really "study" and look deeper into what you learn.

 

I've been training since the 1970's and I still learn things from basic fundamental techniques.

 

R. McLain

 

I agree to this to a "degree".

 

But what if the instructor has not a lot of expereince or not much more to offer? How can one, needing more instruction, look into things deeper that they have already. What if one had put in much time and "patience" to discover that they gone, with that particular instructor or school, as far as they can go?

[rmclain]

Well, if an instructor didn't have much experience, I wouldn't begin with them in the first place. I don't understand why anyone would, unless it was a financial or convenience issue. I would never go to an inexperienced doctor for my health. Dealing with an inexperienced instructor can be just as bad for your health.

 

I suppose you would have to decide who was the judge of "This person has gone as far as they can go" with some instructor. Most people I've seen that "self-decided" this for themselves, were only great in their own minds and didn't have a grasp on the art they studied. You can find some of those out there that start their own "art" and makeup some new name to describe it. Understand, this is not an attack on the legitimate art founders, just an observation of things I've witnessed over the years.

 

I suppose next you have to figure out what is much time and "Patience:" 2 years, 5 years, 20 years, 6 months? Perhaps I am just spoiled with my model of having a teacher that has continuously trained since 1951, and taught professionally since 1957. He talks about finding new things from old information. My experience is the same.

 

It really boils down to someone not being happy where they are training. They need to figure out why.

 

But, if someone is really with a bad and limited instructor, then they need to move elsewhere and check the credentials (check these out!) of a prospective instructor to find out if they are a good teacher and mentor.

 

R. McLain

[47MartialMan]

rmclain, Thats is the just of it. The medical profession has a common standard in the US. So a patient will know that a physician is qualified. However, ohysicains have been known to mis-dianose thing. Where a second opinion or physican is sought.

[47MartialMan]

Sorry, did'nt mean to post so soon. I clicked the "summit" button where I wanted to click the "preview" one. Most beginning students of martial arts, haven't the lesiure, curiousity, or guidance of their first choice. So they sign up (the shame of it-a McDojo). Now, all they know is this particular school. So now they would developl a biased idea, or having no other realizations. In short, how can a beginner realize that they have a inexperience instructor?

[rmclain]

Great point. That is definitely a problem.

 

Since there is no standard or regulation for the martial art industry it would be nice to have non-biased resource for prospective beginner students to contact regarding the legitimacy or experience of instructors in the area.

 

I try to offer this for anyone calling to start a martial arts program. I don't have something that everyone is looking for, so I don't try to be a salesman to them. I've educated myself over the past 10 years in this area about schools and instructors. When I receive a call or e-mail, I try to find out what the prospective student is trying to find by training in martial arts, then recommend a school in the area suited to what they desire, whether it is with me or another school.

 

Many times, as suggested, they don't know what they want. So, I invite them for a free trial lesson or to watch class, then recommend they visit other schools to compare.

 

I've seen some real scumbags in my area and their desire to become rich or something by roping in ignorant students then giving them terrible instruction. Some of these are the ones that don't stay in any art for very long, then falsify credentials to make themselves more marketable to the unknowing public. I like to do background checks on these people and check their claims.

 

I think each area needs a service like this to help the public steer away from the inexperienced instructor and the martial arts businessman.

 

R. McLain