Disrepectful member in my shotokan dojo

[Ti]

At school I train with a respected instructor. He is hired buy the school to teach beginning and intermediate Karate. On the side he is the instructor for our Karate club.

 

He volunteers his time to teach us.

 

It is an honor and a privilage especially since he is such a good instructor.

 

Well today This one lady was bad mouthing our sensei, cause apparently they had problems. She claims he doesn't teach her anything and never answers her questions. Honestly during training I never see her raise a hand to ask a question.

 

What I DO notice is her talking when she shouldn't be!

 

Like talking to me while we are lined by rank to bow!

 

And just last week Lining to my Right when she is of a lower kyu.

 

I don't care, but it is proper dojo etiquette to line up on my left cause she is of lower rank and the senior members care.

 

No she is not new. She has been in our dojo for 1/2 a year now, currently 7th kyu. By now any student SHOULD know the dojo etiquette.

 

Anyhow se went off ranting how Sensei is an advisor (which is the paper term for his position with out school for the club) and not our instructor.

 

Then she continues to mouth off that the other shodan senpai who hlep train us shold not be welcome cause they are not a part of our club.

 

Needless to say she was not making sense.

 

She disrespects the dojo etiquette and our sensei and expects him to still be helpful to her. Unbelievable. You must show respect to be shown the same.

 

The other black belts are crucial to our training cause sensei can't train all of us at once.

 

She disrespects the dojo etiquette, bad mouths our sensei and expects to be a part of our dojo.

 

It was ridiclous, started ranting,"I do what I want, who said I have to follow your rules!, You can't make me do blah blah blah"

 

We made it simple and clear like Sensei does, in dojo you follow our rules, you want to do all that other stuff, go outside.

 

This lady was so infuriating. I told her if you don't like the way we do things, then leave, nobody is making you stay and nobody is making you leave. Your choice, you're the one not agreeing.

 

Only thing she can reply with are insults from out of nowhere like "youre stupid" and "You can't make me blah blah blah"

 

Just had to rant.

 

I'm sure many of you agree with me it was ridiclous to say such things about sensei and how stupid it is to continue training with us if that is how she feels.

[Jade]

Well...i have to agree because i experienced situations like that.

 

Imagine if its your Instructor to make fun of some of his "less good" students?

 

I started training shotokan in a dojo where the Sensei was respected as "karate teacher"...i mean, he was one of the best karateka around...but as person sometime he was an *. For example, there was a kinda fat boy that he tried to make his best to learn karate and the instructor sometime made fun of him for what he was...what the hell, with time i discovered that in that dojo respect didn't exist. Several students didn't respect the sensei and vice versa.

 

Now i find a dojo where the teacher is a great person...and even if he can't answer all my questions, i respect him because i see he make his best to teach his students with passion.

 

Ti, if that girs you talk about think that your instructor doesn't teach her...tell her she have to respect him first...and not talking or bothering while your're training.

[karatekid1975]

Ti, if that girs you talk about think that your instructor doesn't teach her...tell her she have to respect him first...and not talking or bothering while your're training.

 

I agree with Jade.

 

Plus, if she doesn't like the teacher and the dojo, why doesn't she just find somewhere else to go? I would have (not that I would cause any problems like her .... I'd be ashamed of myself).

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Ti...2 suggestion here for you.

 

1.) Just ignore her if she's bugging you.

 

2.) This isn't your problem, it is your sensei's. Let him deal with it. If he choses to do nothing, that is his chocie, not yours.

 

As for her talking while you're lined up...the easiest thing to do is don't look at her, and raise your index finger and make the "Shhhh..." signal with your finger to your lips. Don't say anything else to her..just ignore her.

 

I find it odd that the sensei doesn't see these things you're talking about and act upon them immediately. I've taught classes as large as 75 people at a time by myself (more if you count seminars), and I don't miss much. The sitting in the wrong position at the line up tells me that he's not watching his class very well, or doesn't know for sure where his students are supposed to be. Just how big is your class that you're talking about?

[Ti]

Believe me guys, I want no part of it. We had a club meeting for our school Karate club, the school dojo and our club are connected. The club helps us maintain a dojo presence on campus.

 

This all happened during a club meeting. (I have no idea why she was there) Yes I do ignore her, but in club meeting when she is saying disruptful things like that, it gets in the way of us trying to get things done.

Ti, if that girs you talk about think that your instructor doesn't teach her...tell her she have to respect him first...and not talking or bothering while your're training.

You are correct here and I already mentioned this to her during the club meeting. Being the belligerent person she is she replied with "Who rules are these" Why should I respect these rules if the "advisor" doe not respect me? I can do what ever I want!, Other people talk, why can't I talk!"

 

It got no where.

Plus, if she doesn't like the teacher and the dojo, why doesn't she just find somewhere else to go? I would have (not that I would cause any problems like her .... I'd be ashamed of myself).

I also addressed this. Told her, if you don't like it there, then feel free to leave. Her reply was "You can't kick me out!, You have no right!"

This isn't your problem, it is your sensei's. Let him deal with it. If he choses to do nothing, that is his chocie, not yours.

It disrupts me when I hold club meetings cause I am the VP of our club, and I think sensei gave up on it because as you can see, she is irrational.

The sitting in the wrong position at the line up tells me that he's not watching his class very well, or doesn't know for sure where his students are supposed to be. Just how big is your class that you're talking about?

Let me clarify that, Sensei does know, and once he sees it he tells her to move. But before Sensei sees it, I try to tell her to get to my left without talking too much to violate etiquette myself, but she keeps yammering to the guy next to her (who she wanted to line next to for chit chat, that guy ignores her btw) Thsi other time she was yapping to him and pulled him to her right putting me to his right where I don't belong because he is one kyu above me.

 

I completely agree with you guys, she should have some shame. She bad mouths our dojo and instructor, but keeps comming. Makes no sense to me.

 

Oh and I was not the only one defending the name of our sensei, other members also stepped in. They tried to explain to her, when you are in dojo, our rules, step out and do whatever you want. She failed to understand that kept yammering :People do this, people do that why can't I!" She was referring to the kids that come by on saturdays who are dropped off by their parents, they are young and not completely aware of our dojo rules, so we let them slide, but we eventually tell the kids. As for talking in dojo, those are our white belts, they just don't know yet. But when I heard that I my only thought was "what are you 5, don't give me that he does this she does that bull"

 

And throughout the whole thing none of us insulted her, but she felt very free to insult all of us. (not that her insults were very good, they were just ridiculous)

[wing chun kuen man]

Ti,

 

I believe that your sensei should just expel her from the dojo. That is what would have happened to her (very quickly) if she behaved like that in the kwoon (dojo) where I do my training. There are some dojos that do not tolerate that kind of behavior. Obviously it is up to your instructor.

 

I do believe though that if he puts up with her behavior she will get worse and there is nothing to say that in the future you won´t have a second or even a third person like her training in the dojo....You see where I am going with this?

 

I personally believe that there is a good reason and a place for the "rigid" discipline in some oriental MA´s.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Ti]

We're working on it. Once the Sensei completes the new constitution for the dojo/club relationship and we submit to to the school we can "legitamately" kick her out if she doesn't shape up.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Well, if your sensei is putting up with it (Why he does is an interesting question), then I'd stay out of it totally. Ignore her..don't talk to her..don't correct her..and either she'll quit. or start shaping up. It's really a problem with your sensei, as he's supposed to have control of his class.

 

As for "She's supposed to respect the sensei"..respect is earned, not expected or demanded. There are sensei that I know that I have no respect at all for for various reasons I don't want to get into. Any sensei that demands to be respected...won't get mine. She obviously has no respect for him, and one reason is that he sounds like he has little control over the class. For a teacher...ANY teacher of others..this is not a good thing.

[White Warlock]

This situation is unique, because the instructor is wearing three hats.

 

I created and ran many college clubs in the past, so i feel reasonably qualified to chime in on some of the 'unique' issues here. One of the important things here is, the club CANNOT exist without the advisor. As far as i know, a prerequisite for every club on every campus in the U.S. is to have a 'college staff member' serve as an advisor. If a club cannot provide an advisor, the club cannot be formed on campus. Add to this the advisor position is entirely voluntary, therefore it needs to be respected.

 

Part of the problem, as i see it, is that this woman is blurring the lines between what the instructor does off campus (which is to run/teach at a dojo), what the college hired the instructor to do (which is to teach those karate classes), and what the instructor has volunteered to do (which is to serve as an advisor for a club).

 

As a college student, she is entitled to file a 'formal' complaint about the manner in which the instructor teaches his classes at the college, if she so wishes. However, she is not allowed, in no uncertain terms, to harrass or publicly criticize an college staff member (some of her comments could be construed as slander, depending on specifically what was said). This is clearly stipulated on just about every campus. Even if he is sitting in a meeting with a bunch of students, wearing the hat of an advisor, he is still very much a member of the college's staff, and thus is protected by the campus on that aspect alone. Indeed, were her actions over the top, she could very well be kicked out of the college. But, for what you have indicated as her actions, no campus administration in their right mind would lift a finger.

 

As to the meeting, all club meetings on a college campus MUST be publicly accessible. Even if she weren't a member of the club, she could still participate. But, if she is disruptive, you can contact the Campus Police and have her removed from the room. Better hope you can provide a reasonable excuse.

 

Now, my recommendation is to talk to the Student Association Advisor and President. Ask them what options you have for being able to 'remove' someone as a member of your club. As VP, you shouldn't have any difficulty setting up an impromptu emergency meeting with them. It may help to have your club's president and advisor (the instructor in question) attend this meeting as well. Your club's constitution should have provided a means to remove someone from membership status and it may be required that you amend your existing constitution.

 

If this woman is NOT a student of the campus, she cannot participate in a campus meeting. As well as i know, she can only be on campus as a guest. Which is to say that she can be charged with trespassing if she was warned at least once by the Campus Police.

 

Last, is the dojo outside of campus. If she is also a student at the dojo off campus, then that is an issue entirely separate from the college and the club. This is something your instructor needs to handle on a personal level. Whatever happens in the dojo is a matter for your instructor to handle. He wears a different hat in the dojo, and it is a hat of 'supreme' authority. I'm assuming he owns or co-owns the dojo. Is that correct?

 

On the rest, i agree with Shorinryu Sensei. In the dojo, it is not your place to resolve these issues. Avoid talking to her, ignore her antics, and focus on your lessons. If you find her actions to be disruptive, then talk 'privately' with your instructor, stating your grievances. In the end, however, it is the instructor's call as to what, if anything, is going to be done in 'his' dojo.

 

Hope this helps.

 

edit: just read your comments about working on the constitution. Glad to hear you're heading in the right direction.

[Master Jules]

Ti...

 

Let me first tell ya....I feel your pain....lol

 

But seriously.....having trained with countless people over the years, both in and out of the dojo setting, Ive seen all kinds of personalities come and go....and so has your teacher.

 

What I mean by that is this....your teacher and senior ranking students DO NOTICE this woman's behavior.....trust me, they DO. Yes, people like her can detract from the continuity and quality of training, BUT ONLY TO THEMSELVES. Their behavior simply means that they arent giving 100% focus to whats going on in class, and consequently, they are shortchanging their own learning.

 

Although she sounds like a real pain in the..., YOU are there to learn.....stop spending so much energy worrying about how much of a pain in the ... SHE is.

 

Here's a suggestion....

 

Your sensei trains you in the physical and mental concepts of your art, and Im sure he also talks about....or at least implys to you.....the importance of focus and concentration.

 

Consider this woman to be part of your "supplemental training" in the aspect of the "focus and concentration" part of your training.

 

Show your sensei, and the senior students of your class that despite the OBVIOUS distraction that this fellow student causes, YOU will remain 100% focused on training to become a better martial artist.

 

This training will help develop your ability in "real life" to remain focused on any task at hand, and perform outstandingly. As a bouncer for 19 years, I can tell you from personal experience that this kind of training has given me the ability to have what others have called an "infinite amount of patience" in dealing with guys that you just wanna throttle. LOL.....

 

Anyway.....heres the deal....

 

#1-- Dont worry....your Sensei KNOWS

 

#2-- Use her to your advantage....remember...the tougher you make ALL aspects of your training....the easier everything else will be......

 

"Focus Grasshoppa"

 

PS......please take the advice I just gave you....YOUR training will improve greatly.

 

Good luck