age limit

[Red J]

The best i can see... is the button of shame.

 

Nooooooo! Anything but the Button of Shame!

[manuelito]

minimum age requirements imo a good idea. however what should the ages be? to me the ages of 13-16 for 1st bb to young. i speak from experience, i got my first bb at age 15, and i did not respect the rank as i do today. if i had my way 18 yrs would be the age for eligibility for 1st bb and must have at least 5 years of training (2-3 times a week).

[delta1]

delta1... not ...laws or rules ...schools or associations themselves take a look at how rediculious...when a 6-10 year old... BB.

 

... criteria I use:

 

1.... knowledge and skills to teach...

 

2. ...student is capable of successfully handle and "average" confrontation...

 

3....maturity, attitude and experience to handle the responsibility...

 

4....demonstrated...they deserve a black belt...

 

A kid just isn't going to have the maturity, experience, reflexes, strength or thought processes to handle what a wearer of a black belt represents.

 

I, and most of those who post here I'm sure, agree wholeheartedly with you. But, without a governing body with some kind of authority, I don't see how you will get everyone on board. We already have voluntary associations, but the schools with the golden arches just find or form associations that allow their low standards. I believe we make some difference by standing up and speaking out in both these forums and in our community. But the McMA's will not usually listen. They prey on those who want the easy recognition.

 

Frankly, there is a good side to this. They keep the midget clowns from wasting the time of better instructors, who would otherwise have to waste a lot of effort qualifying and getting rid of the wannabe's. And, a lot of people enter the martial arts in a McDojo, find they like it, but want more than they are getting there. True, some leave with a bad taste in their mouth for the martial arts. All you can do is be there, be up front but not confrontational in your views, and show them that there is something better available. They either try it, or they don't. ASk yourself, do you really want the ones that don't? And the ones that do come to you more or less pre-qualified, and with an attitude that they want to learn. They also have some experience and exposure to the MA's. Find the good and work with it, instead of leaving the definition and application of good to a bunch of at best mediocre beaurocrats and regulators (which you've said you don't want, but I guarantee are allways waiting in the wings to take advantage of the attitude of forcing standards on everyone). The free market system works well in many ways and on many levels. It, like every system involving people, has some flaws or problems. But it is the only system that allows those who want to to excell. And no system can make those who don't want to to do better.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

The thing that bothers me dealta1 is this. The general public just doesn't understand the politics of the martial arts, and is easily fooled by McDojo's. That's what keeps them in business. Am I glad that they are taking care of teaching people that just want quick rank? No, not really, because those pople..and there's a school like this locally...get a quickie black belt, have poor self-defense skills (BUT THEY CAN BREAK A BOARD!!! ), but because they have that belt, walk around like peacocks thinking they are just the toughest SOB's to walk the planet, and really think they have the ability now to defend themselves in a street fight.

 

You know as well as I do bud, that the belt doesn't make the man..it's knowledge and abilities that does that. These kids just do not have that ability to defend themselves against the "average" man on the street...which is one of the things that I personally consider a manditory point of being a black belt level martial artist.

 

Somebody please tell me of a real life story where a 10 year old black belt successfully defended himself against an adult that was seriously trying to attack and hurt him? I mean a serious attack, not just a half-hearted attempt at molesting him or something along that line. It just isn't going to happen people.

[Little Dragon]

Somebody please tell me of a real life story where a 10 year old black belt successfully defended himself against an adult that was seriously trying to attack and hurt him? I mean a serious attack, not just a half-hearted attempt at molesting him or something along that line. It just isn't going to happen people.

haha,your right..i doubt kids around the age of 10 and younger wouldnt really be able to handle themselves.They are still young,its not like they will use a grapple in a fight.Most kids around that age do martial arts mainly because it looks cool or they fight like ninja turtles.Theres this 9 year old BB in my class i usualyl see.He is still very undisciplined and always says to the master ''but it looks so cool!''

 

The day i see a 10 year old kid take down a grown 30 year old man is the day i would be dipped in * and rolled in bread crumbs.

[Kicks]

Somebody please tell me of a real life story where a 10 year old black belt successfully defended himself against an adult that was seriously trying to attack and hurt him?

 

Why is this always the question asked when the topic of youth black belts comes up? I've seen it on many, many MA forums. It has divided nations! OK, maybe not nations, but I've seen some violent arguments about it.

 

If a youth should not be a black belt because he can not defend himself PHYSICALLY against an adult, then that rule should also apply to adults. An adult should not become a black belt unless he can beat every other adult. Therefore, there should only be one black belt in all the world, right?

 

Why not give youth the same allowance in physical self defense you give adults? If the youth can defend himself against other youths near his age, size, weight, whatever, why not give him credit for that? Would you deny a 55 year old adult his black belt because he can't beat up a 28 year old adult?

 

I've actually witnessed my son, when he was in grammer school, attacked after school by two older upper classmen. After trying to avoid violent behavior, one put him in a full nelson and rammed him into a pole. A few seconds later that kid was on the ground doubled over and the other kid was fleeing. My son wasn't even a black belt at that time. Then I've seen an adult black belt get his butt whooped by one guy in a street fight.

 

So, who gets credit for being able to defend himself in the manner that a black belt should?

 

We have a student who has been competing in the adult division in local tournaments since he was 16 (see my post in Korean Martial Arts..Boards Broken). And he's won all his matches but one. And in that tournament there was a grand championship where anybody could fight for the title. He won that, beating the adult that he lost to earlier in his bracket. I've seen him do a double spinning kick that knocked an adult out of the ring who was more than double his weight.

 

Then I see the opposite too. There is a McDojo around here that has a 5 year old girl who can't tie her shoes wearing a black belt. Yeck, even I could take her on!

 

Geez...and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this sort of topic!!

[delta1]

You know as well as I do bud, that the belt doesn't make the man..it's knowledge and abilities that does that. These kids just do not have that ability to defend themselves against the "average" man on the street...which is one of the things that I personally consider a manditory point of being a black belt level martial artist.

 

Yes, we've discussed this before. As I said then, it isn't whether he can take on an adult, but whether he has a significantly better chance against kids in his age bracket. Even then, I prefer to see a junior rank awarded than full rank, especially black. But I am not willing to force my views on others. Persuasion, yes, but not coersion. Because, guess what- if I can do it to them, it can be done to me. And there are more of them than there are me and you. And power hungry beaurocrats aren't afraid of the McBB's- but they are terrified of competant martial artists (or anything else competant for that matter), and your school will be closed long before the McJerk.

 

I understand how you feel. But regulations, outside the voluntary regs involved in joining a particular association, are not the way to go.

 

Laise faire! Laise passe!

[Shorinryu Sensei]

If a youth should not be a black belt because he can not defend himself PHYSICALLY against an adult, then that rule should also apply to adults. An adult should not become a black belt unless he can beat every other adult. Therefore, there should only be one black belt in all the world, right?

 

Why not give youth the same allowance in physical self defense you give adults? If the youth can defend himself against other youths near his age, size, weight, whatever, why not give him credit for that? Would you deny a 55 year old adult his black belt because he can't beat up a 28 year old adult?

 

If you'll reread what I said, my personal criteria for a black belt test is that they should be able to handle themselves against an average adult. This does not include pro football linebacks, professional wrestlers and boxers, or people twice their size. And yes, I see no reason a man or woman, age 55...or 65..or even 75 maybe, can't do that also. It might take them twice as long to achieve their black belt as someone in their 20's, but I see no reason why they can't do it. Using your logic Kicks, then a 4 year old can wear a black belt, because he learned to do one kick or punch well, and can use that against any other 4 year old of the same weight, age, and size. Is self-defense now supposed to be like a tournament with different divisions and criteria for different people?

I've actually witnessed my son, when he was in grammer school, attacked after school by two older upper classmen. After trying to avoid violent behavior, one put him in a full nelson and rammed him into a pole. A few seconds later that kid was on the ground doubled over and the other kid was fleeing. My son wasn't even a black belt at that time.

 

And what does this have to do with the discussion? He learned to defend himself..that's good.

Then I've seen an adult black belt get his butt whooped by one guy in a street fight.

 

Yes, so have I. Again, what does this have to do with the subject? There are some dang good street fighters out there that can take a lot of black belts. I wouldn't consider them average usually...eithger htat, ot the black belt had inferior training....or a bad day...or was caught off guard. It can happen to any of us. Being a black belt does not make us invincible or Gods. On any given day, anybody can be beaten.

So, who gets credit for being able to defend himself in the manner that a black belt should?

 

Ahhhh..now we get into delta1's sore spot...regulation of the arts. I fweel that this is something that the individual instructors and associations need to worry about. Any of my students that go out and teach their own classes have the same opinions about this subject as I do, and would not promote a child under the age of 16 to black belt. I do not force this policy on them, but they have been with me long enough to have absorbed my teachings and agree wiyth what I teach because it makes sense to us. If it doesn't make sense to you...go ahead and promote kids to 1st..3rd..10th degree black belts. It matters not to me, as long as my shaking my head in disbelief and disgust doesn't bother you.

We have a student who has been competing in the adult division in local tournaments since he was 16 (see my post in Korean Martial Arts..Boards Broken). And he's won all his matches but one. And in that tournament there was a grand championship where anybody could fight for the title. He won that, beating the adult that he lost to earlier in his bracket. I've seen him do a double spinning kick that knocked an adult out of the ring who was more than double his weight.

 

Again, why do you keep talking about tournaments and weight classes? This is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about something that is apparently alien to you kicks...and that is the dreaded street. Real fighting for survival...not trophies. In case you're nto aware of it, there is a HUGE differance between the two.

Then I see the opposite too. There is a McDojo around here that has a 5 year old girl who can't tie her shoes wearing a black belt. Yeck, even I could take her on!

 

Are you sure you could take her? According to what you're saying, a child black belt should be able to handle just about anybody. Oh...oops...I forgot ...weight divisions, age, height....OK, maybe you could.

 

OK...it's now 1:34 am and I'm a bit tireed and cranky. I'll probably reread this post tomorrow and go "Ohh crap..I said that?"

 

Basically, there is no solution to this issue for anybody. You can promote your kids as young as you want to black belts, and I and many other martial artists will point, shake our heads and groan at the absurdity of it. You're within your rights to do so, and it's my right to think it's stupid. Agree to disagree?

[Kicks]

then a 4 year old can wear a black belt, because he learned to do one kick or punch well, and can use that against any other 4 year old of the same weight, age, and size.

You're 100% right in my opinion. I reread my post and saw I didn't express myself clearly. In fact, I contridict myself. I do think that there are youths that deserve to wear the belt, I often see more that really don't. I do believe there should be an age limit, but allow only those teens and under teens who deserve it to get it.

I'm talking about something that is apparently alien to you kicks...and that is the dreaded street.

This is why I usually avoid joining in on the subject of black belt and age. They often sink down to personal attacks and unsubstantiated assumptions. You don't know my history. I'm surprised that this came from a respected member like you. I rather take the high road.

 

 

OK...it's now 1:34 am and I'm a bit tireed and cranky. I'll probably reread this post tomorrow and go "Ohh crap..I said that?"

 

LOL, no problem. This whole forum is about opinions, not absolutes.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

It's 9:40 the next day.

 

OH CRAP...I SAID THAT?