Kenpo and Kiai!

[Wickedwayz]

here is a question for you seasoned kenpoists (ive had 3 classes to date heh) I havent really practiced any kata or anything , sorta started working the orange belt the first night ( beheading the dragon and such) and other night was all work out and last sparring. in any point in kenpo is there a KIAI! in the kata ? or would they not appriciate me bringing my magic shotokan word into thier style , lol cuz i almost shouted it in class last night . my last instructor made us shout on every 10th count no matter what we were doing punches , kicks , sit ups all that. just curious .

[Wickedwayz]

Ooooh im a yellow belt now ( on website) go go gadget 25 posts.

[delta1]

You are doing the IKCA system. Are you doing it by tape, or at a school? Most Parker Kenpo systems and schools have no problem with, and in fact encourage, your bringing past experience to the system, or going out and cross training. What you'll find is that, usually, Kenpo becomes your base and everything else is either grafted onto or subsumed under it.

 

In the tapes,you are first instructed to kiai. Later, they will in your private instruction, teach you to substitute a low, rolling growl. (Don't ever tell whitewarlock that, though, as I once kidded him unmercifully about that!) Also, look at other things in your past training. Look for principles in Shotokan, and how they apply to Kenpo. Look for similarities, points of convergence, divergence, and confluent areas in both systems. It will greatly improve both your Shotokan and your Kenpo.

 

Good journey!

[Wickedwayz]

I have found them ( shotokan and kenpo ) to be very similar and very different , im going to a school btw , for example the fist they hold is different , and when I say they you understand i mean the school i attend which is ICKA . and they dont have as many pull back motions like with the reverse punch instead of bringing the none punching had back and "re-cocking" every punch its thrown more like a boxing punch . personally I like the kiai for forceful movements and shock value but , i havent seen anything i dont like in this class so far so maybe ill just give a shout out in the name of shotokan next time we sparr and check the look on my opponents face hehe should be interesting . we just got a guy from tkd also. so we can get all crazy.heh ill let ya know how it turns out , i just wish i could operate my digital camera while sparring.

[delta1]

I have found them ( shotokan and kenpo ) to be very similar and very different

 

There are similarities, and a lot of differences. The big differences are soft moves and flow in Kenpo.

 

Shotokan, as well as TKD, can be softened. But you really have to go way outside their conventional thinking to do it. Eventually, Kenpo training will show you how to do that.

 

Flow is one reason Kenpo doesn't train to allways chamber, or pull back. When you do chamber, you'll find in Kenpo that you don't just reverse the motion and strike. Usually, you flow right through that chamber (after you initially learn it in the ideal phase as a chamber) and you do something very evil to your opponent, very rapidly. Kenpo doesn't think of a chamber as a ready position to strike from. It is there either to clear your arms so they don't interfere, to add circular power, add options, add unpredictability, and because some motions naturally flow through that position. But, it is never there to draw back before a strike. Never do what you will have to undo- it telegraphs as well as leaves you open, and takes longer too. Look at the hard contact JMA and Korean schools. They don't do those chambers when they spar. Dijita once posted some pics of Kyokushin tournaments. They were closer to Kenpo than traditional JMA's! I've fought contact TKD stylists, and they are definately more towards Kenpo than the sport or traditional schools.

 

Another thing about the chambered punch, you can hit harder from a good guard position than from a chambered position- and it doesn't telegraph, is much quicker and more accurate as well. You just have to pay attention to your principles and form, and relax a little.

 

Edit: since there are a lot of new posters here, let me say that I'm not dumping on traditional systems. The 'old timers' will tell you that I've allways maintained that there are many reasons to take martial arts, and what is right for one is not for another. Take this in the context that we are talking about a reality based system, not a course in 'the way'. Also, if Shotokan and TKD can be modified and trained as a fighting system, so can most others. And I've been put away by enough TKDers, and one Shotokan practicioner, to underestimate them when they train to fight. But in all cases, they were way outside the prison of dogna and tradition in their application.

[Wickedwayz]

right on im not disaggreeing with the chambering punch theory being a bit less feective in combat , real combat that is , kinda like kicking someone in the face , takes less time and energy to move your fist from your waist (or around there , guard position) then to bring your foot from the floor to someones head. ive been reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do so im becomeing alot more open minded about mixing styles together even tho i plan to master kenpo, as it were . i dont think i would mind cross training of a different type later . i gotta admit kenpo certainly has a flow to it , altho "chambering" comes a bit more natural atm i beleive ill get over it soon , even when i sparred in shotokan id get griped at for not returning to ready position . i just need to "feel" how to generate power while "flowing" i suppose any tips on taht delta ? hehe besides just practice till it happens . =D

[Red J]

i just need to "feel" how to generate power while "flowing" i suppose any tips on taht delta ? hehe besides just practice till it happens . =D

 

One thing you will start learning is how to move your center to generate power. This can be done a number of ways from the basic to the advanced. Using direction, twisting, rising and sinking, angles, footwork, circular theory, yin type blocking, expansion, etc., and combining these concepts (and others I'm sure I left out) to generate power. You will move from using the muscles to using body structure, movement, and momentum to generate efficient power.

 

Hang in there for a while and you will start seeing the difference as you move into a "softer" world.

 

BTW, our school encourages Kiai to teach students to breath and emphasize but it was no where near the Shotakan experience that I had in college.

[delta1]

i gotta admit kenpo certainly has a flow to it , altho "chambering" comes a bit more natural atm i beleive ill get over it soon , even when i sparred in shotokan id get griped at for not returning to ready position . i just need to "feel" how to generate power while "flowing" i suppose any tips on taht delta ? hehe besides just practice till it happens . =D

 

Sort of to continue on the answer RedJ gave you, you learn the basics, learn the principles and concepts used, and practice, practice, ... ! It will come. And you will get over that habbit of chambering, if you practice enough. In fact, the chamber will eventually become foreign to you. It just won't feel right.

[parkerlineage]

Perhaps the Kenpo substitute for the chamber is the cover?

 

Every time your hand is not striking, it should be covering the opposite zone as your strike (high-low), right? A chamber, while it may give you a slight bit more rotation and travel, is not very good protection.

 

In regards to the kiai (and this is a very disrespectful, sacriligous statement) what is with those styles that say 'kiai'? Does that help at all? I thought the purpose of a kiai was to tighten your body (to provide more power for a strike or more of a solid target to deflect a hit), lower your stance (again, more power and a stronger base), and expel the air from your lungs. The traditional Kenpo kiai (tuh, suh, ay-ee-suh(more advanced and much cooler sounding kiai)) does that with the 'uh' sound, much like singing. Do the 'ee' or 'eye' sound of 'kiai' do accomplish any of these things, or is there a different purpose?

[delta1]

Perhaps the Kenpo substitute for the chamber is the cover? Every time your hand is not striking, it should be covering the opposite zone as your strike (high-low), right? A chamber, while it may give you a slight bit more rotation and travel, is not very good protection.

 

You mean a 'check', I believe (cover is a foot maneuver- and I've been called on the same mistake, so don't sweat it ). But you are correct. You'll eventually find that you can hit harder from a checking position than from a full chamber, and I find that fully torquing a punch without proper understanding detracts from both power and effectiveness.

 

As for flow, it greatly enhances your ability to control the fight. Kenpo flow should do dammage and set him up both on the strike and the withdrawal. You really see and appreciate this more when you translate your empty hands moves to a knife. The dammage you can do with one motion is unbelievable!