Early Karate techniques

[Master Jules]

Thats actually a pretty good assessment.

[Sho-ju]

Huh???

 

Funakoshi's teacher, Itosu Yasatsune was a Shuri Te stylist (Shorin Ryu). The stances in traditional Shorin Ryu are higher and much more natural than today's Shotokan. If anything, I would say that jujutsu/judo had more of an effect on the modernization of Shotokan, not what Funakoshi taught when he first came from Okinawa. Also, the open hands were from Shuri Te's Chinese origins more than anything else. As I understand it, the katas passed from the Chinese to the Okinawans using only open hand and finger techniques. The Okinawans introduced the closed fist into their martial styles.

 

If I am incorrect please let me know, and also where I could look up the information for my self.

 

I disagree.

 

As a shotokan karateka, I have to give credit to Yoshikaka (Gigo) Funakoshi for the deep and wide stances. Even jj or kendo or judo or whatever people try to say was mixed in, doesn't use the kind of deep stance Gigo is seen doing and Shotokai is known for teaching. Gigo should be studied more in depth, it seems he taught at the Shotokan for 15 years and made most of the changes with his fathers backing. After study, I understand why he made the changes and agree with many of them...he added more kicks, higher kicks and use of full leg extension when kicking. The deep stances added a mental aspect to training, you against the stance.

 

I don't know, I'm still learning. Random thoughts....

 

sj

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Also notice that in the second to last pic...hes grabbing a pressure point on the Lung meridian line, and directing a nakadaka ken zuki (middle knuckle strike) to Stomach meridian point number one.

 

Of course he is...

 

...or then he's grabbing the guy's wrist and striking the face with a sharp knuckle - without any scientifically unverfiable meridian mumbo-jumbo. He might actually teach something about no-nonsense fighting there.

[SevenStar]

Huh???

 

If anything, I would say that jujutsu/judo had more of an effect on the modernization of Shotokan

 

Why would you think so?

[Sho-ju]

Also notice that in the second to last pic...hes grabbing a pressure point on the Lung meridian line, and directing a nakadaka ken zuki (middle knuckle strike) to Stomach meridian point number one.

 

Of course he is...

 

...or then he's grabbing the guy's wrist and striking the face with a sharp knuckle - without any scientifically unverfiable meridian mumbo-jumbo. He might actually teach something about no-nonsense fighting there.

 

That's what I was thinking...why does it always come down to, 'bladder 5, spleen 6, etc?' PP's are for those who like a heady knowledge without the blood, sweat and tears.

 

Nice one.

[Master Jules]

To Jussi and Sho-ju

 

Why do you mock what you clearly dont have a grasp of ????

 

I have been training for 30 years....if my observations exceed your knowledge base then I suggest you get on the mat and train a lot more, instead of opening your mouths and proving yourselves to be the novices that you clearly are.

 

To advanced students and teachers these are commonly understood terms.

 

I dont see any rank indicated for Jussi, but Sho-ju claims Ni Dan rank......you havent even begun to come close to understanding these concepts.

 

Im pretty sure that if a 5th Dan was working with you on your dojo floor, you would be more inclined to bow deeply, say Osu, and shut your mouth.

 

Here, you get to hide behind the anonimity of a computer screen.

 

One of the things I have learned over the MANY years that I have been training, is the further you get, the more you realize how little you know.....guess you two still have quite a ways to go until you get to that point though.

 

I generally am a very laid back kind of guy, but your posts claim that your opinion is that this is "unverifiable meridian mumbo jumbo" , and basically mock my post. I find that highly offensive, given my background.

 

Make NO mistake....BOTH of you....

 

I have EARNED, over 30 YEARS, the titles of Master, and Renshi.

 

As I said before, it is very easy for you to babble while "hiding" behind your computer screen, Id love to see the beating you would receive from your teacher if he actually were to see with his own eyes how disrespectful you were to someone who is very much your senior.

 

Also, I fight full contact, no pads, against my master, 7th dan.....he regularly makes it a point of giving me plenty of blood, sweat, and tears.....so dont assume anything about anyone.

 

God, what I would give to get you on my mat for just 5 minutes.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

To Jussi and Sho-ju

 

Why do you mock what you clearly dont have a grasp of ????

 

I probably have more grasp on that area than you'd think when reading my earlier post.

 

 

I have been training for 30 years....if my observations exceed your knowledge base then I suggest you get on the mat and train a lot more, instead of opening your mouths and proving yourselves to be the novices that you clearly are.

 

I have done enough pressure point training - and, more importantly, enough kata and kata application training in a classical Okinawan style of karate - to know what is useful, what is not and what is a tell-tale - and what is not.

 

 

To advanced students and teachers these are commonly understood terms.

 

Terms are well known and often promoted, but "gall bladder", "lung" etc. meridians do not have ANY proven connection to the mentioned organs NOR do they have the effect that is often claimed to them. Sure, when you strike a correct part of the human body, it hurts more than the other part, but that's pretty much it for the pressure points.

 

There has been some testing on the area and the results have not been very supportive to the pressure point believer's claims.

 

 

Im pretty sure that if a 5th Dan was working with you on your dojo floor, you would be more inclined to bow deeply, say Osu, and shut your mouth.

 

I've met many 5th dans, 6th, 7th and 9th dans (including a Goju-Ryu 9th dan) (and trained with them) in Okinawan karate and every single one of them has told me that pressure points are not very useful and that they don't work in a way that - for example - George Dillman's group and other similar enthusiasts claim that they do work. They agreed that some areas of the body are more sensitive to pain than others and that there are blood pressure receptors in throat area (for example), but that going anywhere "deeper" in sense of pressure points isn't very useful in fighting and is not practiced in Okinawan karate nor Okinawan kata.

 

I've also been a target to pressure point attacks and performed them to others by myself. Most often, results to me have been minimal or inexistent - so much that I've been labeled as "unreceptive". When I've performed them to others, the "believers" have often had some significant (and almost show-like) effects. However, when I do same techniques to the people that don't know about pressure points (or don't care about them), the results have been same as they're on me - unusable in fighting or self defence.

 

And I don't say "osu" to any teacher that I'm not familiar with or when I'm not a part of some kind of sports club. In a martial arts club it's more often than not a negative, insulting expression. It's generally an unused term in Okinawan karate - if one uses "osu", it's a pretty clear sign that he trains a Japanese style (or belongs to a sports oriented group).

 

 

Here, you get to hide behind the anonimity of a computer screen.

 

I write openly with my own name and I am well known in several internet forums and in the martial arts circles of my country. I don't have anything to hide behind the anonymity. What counts is the knowledge and proof - and, in martial arts, I tend to respect some empiric proof supported by theory and - if claims are very wild - some scientific testing.

 

 

One of the things I have learned over the MANY years that I have been training, is the further you get, the more you realize how little you know.....guess you two still have quite a ways to go until you get to that point though.

 

I realized that in a very early point of my training. However, after that I've also realized that in order to learn anything worthy AND to really know the things is that I have to generate a good bullshit-filter first. That, in my book, consists of scientific approach, testing and re-testing. There aren't things in oriental martial arts that aren't measurable (and analyzable) with scientific process or religion/spirituality - and I rank the religious/spiritual side (including the concept of "chi" without explanation what exactly that concept means) straight away from my testing. I concentrate on what is there and how it works - and how logical, easy and useful would that be in a real fight (not when someone stands and you may do whatever you want on him).

 

 

I generally am a very laid back kind of guy, but your posts claim that your opinion is that this is "unverifiable meridian mumbo jumbo" , and basically mock my post. I find that highly offensive, given my background.

 

Which actually proves that your skin is very thin and you are offended easily. Yes, I did mock your post. Yes, I did re-read it and I would mock it again.

 

Hollow mentioning about your "backround" aren't going to impress me here. Give me the exact scientific studies about the meridians and proof (scientific proof) that they work as you claim them to work and I may listen to you. If you explain me that "this point of the wrist hurts when grabbed" (it does) and "this point of the cheek hurts more when hit" (OK, it does), your explanation is also OK - actually, then it's very OK! I'd say that it's the depth that Funakoshi explained them - if he explained. That's the level that Okinawan masters nowadays (and their masters) did explain the effect. It's - for me - the most functional level of explanation.

 

 

Make NO mistake....BOTH of you....

 

I don't.

 

 

I have EARNED, over 30 YEARS, the titles of Master, and Renshi.

 

From whom and in what school (kan) in which organization? Why are pushing them so hard - often the Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi that I know never brought their titles up and never called themselves by their titles. Most of them introduced them either with their full name or on a first name basis. None of them included any title with their name.

 

 

As I said before, it is very easy for you to babble while "hiding" behind your computer screen, Id love to see the beating you would receive from your teacher if he actually were to see with his own eyes how disrespectful you were to someone who is very much your senior.

 

OK, what is your name and where have you trained? Who is your teacher? What "kan" of Goju-Ryu do you teach and train?

 

I wouldn't receive a beating from my teacher. Actually, if you were present, we'd have a discussion of these things. My teacher has a similar approach as I have.

 

Besides, you're not my senior. You're a student of a different art and different style - be your rank any, we're equal in terms of discussion.

 

 

Also, I fight full contact, no pads, against my master, 7th dan.....he regularly makes it a point of giving me plenty of blood, sweat, and tears.....so dont assume anything about anyone.

 

Great, that's the way I enjoy things, as well. Why did you bring that up? It won't change anything. I don't assume anything about you - I really don't assume anything

about you before you come behind your "Master Jules" nickname and introduce yourself with your real name, including the school (kan) you study. I do that already - openly.

 

 

God, what I would give to get you on my mat for just 5 minutes.

 

Why? You enjoy throwing hollow threats on others behind your nickname and the anonymity?

 

If you're coming to Finland, PM me and drop me a line. If I'm heading your way, I'll do the same. I like to visit new clubs and have a bout or two with unfamiliar people.

[Master Jules]

My full name is Julian Hoenig, of New York.

 

My rank and title in Okinawan Goju Ryu comes from a direct student of Sekichi Toguchi, of the Shoreikan, Master Glenard Grabow, who studied with him, as well as Masanobu Shinjo, of the Shobukan, since 1960 on Okinawa, as well as being a direct student of Grandmaster Peter Urban

 

Master Jules is my nickname, but Master, and Renshi, are my titles.

 

I have never used them formally on this forum becuase I never saw the need.

 

I never make "hollow threats", nor was I threatening you. You say I am not your senior....what is your rank and how long have you been training ? It makes no difference what style we each train/teach.....time and rank are to be considered out of courtesy. That you should already know regardless of your rank. I was in sweden in February.....Im sorry we didnt have the opportunity to get together then. Maybe Ill be back in the near future. Or....maybe youll be here.

 

Now...the questions you have asked me have been answered ( I hope to your satisfaction)....answer the same ones for me.....

[Jussi Häkkinen]

My full name is what I use as my handle in these forums (and in practically every forum I participate in).

 

I'm a fresher student of karate, having studied Sukunaihayashi-karate for fifteen years. Aside of that, I've concentrating on the theory and practice of martial arts, maintaining an as scientific (and as practical) approach as possible. My rank is lower than yours - that's all I generally give out in forums (I know - it ticks off many people. However, most don't care - they just discuss and are happy with that), but my knowledge base is rather wide and deep, I may rather justifiedly say. Knowledge is not a rank game. It seems that people agree with me in that - I'm daily contacted in issues regarding Okinawan karate, kata applications and the history of karate (and that's it for my self-promotion for now).

 

I've taught karate since 1995 and will open a new club in Turku-area soon.

 

My teachers are Mr. Ilkka Laari, Mr. Kim Mitrunen and Mr. Jamal Measara, the head of Seibukan in Europe.

 

In sense of discussion and training, we have no "senior" and "junior" -relationship. We're just two martial artists on our own paths - if we have a discussion, we don't have those positions either.

 

I hope we'll be able to meet and discuss, perhaps sipping coffee while doing so. I don't back up from my scientific approach -stand.

 

I think that it's possible that you used the meridian names due to their general use, not due to their (inexistent) use in Okinawan karate applications. If so, I offer my apology. Otherwisely, I'll expect to get a very good (and well argumented) explanation.

[Master Jules]

I answered your questions concerning my background to your satisfaction, I hope, if not, please let me know and I will be more than happy to expand. I did not use the names of meridian lines in a general way....I used them very specifically to the position of his (Funakoshi's) hands. In regards to senior/junior relationships, I was not in any way trying to be condescending, but I am still waiting to hear your rank.....15 years is a solid amount of time, and you have my respect in that regard. Meridian line theory and practice is far from "inexistent" in Okinawan karate, that is fact, not opinion. One last piece of "self promotion".....I was the head of the Goju kai Hokkubei for the southern half of New York State prior to losing my dojo in a nasty divorce. I, too, was contacted from all parts of the state, and country, on info concerning Goju Ryu. Yes, I will be more than happy to agree with you that knowledge is not a "rank game"....it is what it is....knowledge....you either have it or you dont, and then , of course is the question of whether or not you (not you specifically) have the ability to "do". I would be more than happy, and quite honored, in fact, to sit and discuss any type of martial art with anyone, whether over coffee, or any other beverage of your choice.....like I said....I was in Sweden in February, and they have a bunch of great coffee houses, so that would be fine....a beer or two would be good too , if I get back there, or, if you make it over here, hopefully we can come together as martial artists, and learn from each other, more than we allready know.