difference between sparring and real fighting

[SevenStar]

When you spar even if in a tourney you know your not going to get hurt and its all for fun.

 

In a point tourney, maybe. In full contact sports, there are plenty of injuries that can happen. Between bjj, judo and MT, I've seen broken collarbones, broken ribs, broken fingers, concussions, torn muscles...the list goes on.

[Sasori_Te]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think there is any way with physiacl training alone, that you can prepare for an all out attack from someone that feels they don't have anything to lose.

 

I din't say you couldn't prepare at all. I said mental training was needed with the physical training in order to prepare the defenders mind for the shock. All I was saying is that your average martial artist isn't mentally prepared for combat at any given time. I'm not talking about physical movements at all. The techniques in most (and I use most loosely) martial arts are sound enough to use if you have the mind set to use them.

 

I would also like to add that since most mixed martial artists don't fight life or death battles that they would run into the same problems. They may have some added advantage because of the reaction drills that they do but not much.

 

I do agree however that it is the training methods that matter most. However, even training doesn't overcome basic instinct in some cases. Some people just have a warrior mentality and some don't. Training will enhance this if it's there but it can't instill it if it isn't. I know I'm going to catch flack over that comment, but I believe that it's true as a general rule. I'll answer with my reasoning as arguments come up.

[gcav]

There are alot of areas in MAs training that sparring helps with. When done properly it helps with timing, distancing, balance, conditioning, confidence, and the fear of getting hit. Sparring is just that "sparring", not "fighting". Some definitions of sparring are "to make offensive and deffensive movements without landing a blow", and "To engage in a practice or exhibition bout". It is a tool used to help *refine* technique and to help students become relaxed when faced with getting hit. While trianing in Korea, we sparred on hard wood floors, no pads, and all areas of the body were open targets. The only techniques that could not be used were breaking techniques and eye gouges. This was a very good teaching tool. Sparring is just one of many tools an instructor has to help his students fine their way on the martial path. Just my thoughts.

[SevenStar]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think there is any way with physiacl training alone, that you can prepare for an all out attack from someone that feels they don't have anything to lose.

 

we're not agreeing to disagree. We agree, just not on the whole thing. Mindset is very important.

 

I din't say you couldn't prepare at all. I said mental training was needed with the physical training in order to prepare the defenders mind for the shock. All I was saying is that your average martial artist isn't mentally prepared for combat at any given time. I'm not talking about physical movements at all. The techniques in most (and I use most loosely) martial arts are sound enough to use if you have the mind set to use them.

 

the techniques in all of them are sound. Here's where we start to disagree. Prepared mentally or not, you're not going to use those techniques unless they are physically ingrained into you - this is where physical training comes in. When adrenaline rushes and the heart rate surges above 120 or so, you forget everything that is not ingrained physically. That is why you see people who "freeze" in a confrontation - they don't know what to do because they have forgotten. Have you ever been in a tournament and not fought the way you wanted, but afterwards been like "I shoulda done this"? It's because during the match, you forgot.

 

I would also like to add that since most mixed martial artists don't fight life or death battles that they would run into the same problems. They may have some added advantage because of the reaction drills that they do but not much.

 

sure they do. Part of dealing with the confrontation properly is remaining relaxed in it. being in the ring is a high adrenaline situation. heck, people are trying to render you unconscious. you learn to remain calm under such stresses. Also, while full contact sparring, you learn how to deal with taking a punch. Not knowing how to handle a really hard punch will cause you to lose a fight. If you've taken a really good hook punch to the jaw, then you know what I'm talking about. It rocks you. When this happens, people get scared. This leads them to the freeze I mentioned above.

 

I do agree however that it is the training methods that matter most. However, even training doesn't overcome basic instinct in some cases. Some people just have a warrior mentality and some don't. Training will enhance this if it's there but it can't instill it if it isn't.

 

you're right some have it naturally and some don't. But can it be instilled? yes it can.

[Sasori_Te]

I'm not talking about anything to do with tournaments. I've been in numerous tournaments when I was younger and I've also been in my share (and maybe someone else's) of fights. I'm not proud of this but it's true. When I was younger I was a little hot tempered. Anyway, no tournament EVER prepared me for a street fight. The feeling is completely different.

 

I understand what you're saying about ingrained technique. But, here's the problem with ingrained technique. You perform an ingrained technique exactly the way that you learned it. I agree that all techniques should be practiced enough to be in your "muscle memory" but you should also practice having presence of mind enough not to half kill someone because you used an ingrained technique that worked too well. Here's a little something that most folks don't bother to learn. If you use more force than is necessary to subdue an attacker, even if they started the entire encounter, you will go to jail for aggravated assault ( unless you had valid reason to fear for your life). Cops and judges don't care if a technique was ingrained and just happened. I know, but I'm just presenting different information to keep the subject interesting. You have to look at all sides of a thing before you can make an opinion. If your arguments are good you might even change my mind.

[SevenStar]

I'm not talking about anything to do with tournaments. I've been in numerous tournaments when I was younger and I've also been in my share (and maybe someone else's) of fights. I'm not proud of this but it's true. When I was younger I was a little hot tempered. Anyway, no tournament EVER prepared me for a street fight. The feeling is completely different.

 

the tournament thing is an example. The freeze that happens is the same thing that happens in the street. You train karate though, so I'm assuming most of your tournaments were point style. You're right, those won't help you. I fight full contact, which will.

 

I understand what you're saying about ingrained technique. But, here's the problem with ingrained technique. You perform an ingrained technique exactly the way that you learned it.

 

Now you're getting somewhere... How many times have you broken someone's arm in training? How many times have you poked their eyes out? How many ribs have you crushed? None? Then you aren't training that technuque fully - so it's not quite ingrained properly, and you don't KNOW that you can pull it off. Theoretcially you SHOULD be able to. This is where I have a huge dispute with alot of TMA.

 

I agree that all techniques should be practiced enough to be in your "muscle memory" but you should also practice having presence of mind enough not to half kill someone because you used an ingrained technique that worked too well.

 

That's not true for the reason I stated above.

 

Here's a little something that most folks don't bother to learn. If you use more force than is necessary to subdue an attacker, even if they started the entire encounter, you will go to jail for aggravated assault ( unless you had valid reason to fear for your life). Cops and judges don't care if a technique was ingrained and just happened.

 

That's nothing new. But once again, due to the above, you using an ingrained technique to kill someone is unlikely. We can survey it though - we can do polls, surf the net, etc. and see just how many incidents of people going to the fact that they were MA who used ingrained techniques we can find. I doubt it will be many...

 

I know, but I'm just presenting different information to keep the subject interesting. You have to look at all sides of a thing before you can make an opinion. If your arguments are good you might even change my mind.

 

[Sasori_Te]

Well, here's a story about ingrained technique. ONce upon a time ....

 

There were some people at a bar. There was an argument between two friends, nothing major. An outside third party decided to get involved. The outside third party in the end received and ingrained two hand punch technique followed by an ingrained finishing technique stomp to the head. The third party ended up with trauma to the neck area and hasn't worked since. That was 11 years ago.

 

From my own personal experience that's what can happen letting ingrained technique take over. There was no thought about what I was going to do, it just happened. Luckily for me I didn't kill the guy. He said he had a gun and there were witnesses to that so I didn't get into trouble for it. Again, I was lucky that there were witnesses willing to say this. Ever since then I have looked for ways to train in order to keep some presence of mind.

[SevenStar]

I've got similar stories - I've broken people's bones before. I've never not had presence of mind though. I think that is one of the areas that full contact type training helps with.

[Sasori_Te]

I agree that "full contact" (many definitions of that around here, but i think I know what you mean) would help, and it did help me after I realized I didn't want my body going completely on autopilot. I've also quit drinking since then . That helped too. It's tough finding and keeping training partners with enough steel to train like that though. At least that's been my experience.

[47MartialMan]

Lots a blood, bruises, and a broken bone.