difference between sparring and real fighting

[dear john]

i have heard many martial artists talk about the differences between sparring and real fighting.

 

i currently take (tae kwon do) and (dan zan ryu zenyo bujutsu)

 

my instructor in the jujitsu class told me that he had to make a decision a long time ago about whether a\or to keep sparring, because of the way the moves in this MA sparring is very hard. he said that sparring with any kind of rules really was an inafective way to learn how to fight.

 

he claims that he has trained and fought with some of Gracie's brazilain jujitsu people and even they had could not beat him, because even there hard core MA had rules. his MA has none.

 

please give some advise. i have heard this arguement and others who support sparring fully as a way to learn how to fight.

[White Warlock]

There are obviously going to be different takes on this, but let me give you mine.

 

Sparring means different things to different people. To me, it means trading punches and following set guidelines to ensure you don't end up killing each other. Sparring exists for people to practice techniques in a quasi-real setting, without taking a life.

 

Unfortunately, sparring, if overemphasized, can create bad habits, such as 'trading punches,' 'pacing to strategize,' 'limiting strike patterns,' and 'limiting strike targets.'

 

The thing here is, you can't readily 'practice' for a real fight. You can practice the 'ideals,' but in order to prepare for a real fight, you have to be in a real fight... and each and every real fight can be fundamentally different. Different circumstances, different opponents, different conditions, different agenda, etc.

 

So... i'm thinking your jujutsu instructor has just a tad too much ego running in his veins. He has a few points, but pushing it to an extreme falls short.

 

By example, judo became a dominating martial art in Japan primarily because techniques could be practiced with full fury, and yet 'safely.' Due to this, judokas had a far firmer grasp of what works, and were able to train their muscles to be sensitive to changes during a high-tension, high energy conflict. When posed against other jujutsu practitioners that had merely undergone training drills at half-assembly and little to no sparring, judokans just ate them up.

[SevenStar]

my instructor in the jujitsu class told me that he had to make a decision a long time ago about whether a\or to keep sparring, because of the way the moves in this MA sparring is very hard. he said that sparring with any kind of rules really was an inafective way to learn how to fight.

 

Not really. Sparring will make you better off in the long run. Since you train jujutsu, look at what kano did with judo. The main difference he had with his judo was the the jujutsu guys didn't spar. Their stuff was too "deadly", so they only worked technique. Kano's judo guys did spar and mauled all of the jujutsu guys they faced in a tournament - a tournament with less rules than are permitted in judo today. The match basically wasn't over until someone couldn't continue.

 

Without sparring, you really don't know what you could do in a situation or how well you would respond, because you aren't actually doing it, other than through a cooperative partner drill.

 

he claims that he has trained and fought with some of Gracie's brazilain jujitsu people and even they had could not beat him, because even there hard core MA had rules. his MA has none.

 

that's very interesting. Ask him who he beat, what year, which gracie he trained under and where it happened. As far as his MA not having rules, that's the same general comment everyone tends to say "sport MA have rules, we don't, so they are no match" I hate people that say/think that. I mean seriously, think about it. You have Tyson, Ortiz, liddel, etc. Who train for hours a day and spar several days a week. Do you really think that someone who trains far less and doesn't spar is going to win merely because "his MA doesn't have any rules"?

[SevenStar]

Unfortunately, sparring, if overemphasized, can create bad habits, such as 'trading punches,' 'pacing to strategize,' 'limiting strike patterns,' and 'limiting strike targets.'

 

Not if it's done right. we do things to prevent that - you will be training for about three months before you step into the ring and spar, and in that 3 months, you learn the basic strikes and movements and drill them repeatedly. when you spar, you will be with someone more experienced - someone who will not just trade punches with you - he'll back out, try different things, etc - things to make the newbie think about what he's doing, then afterwards, we coach them on their performance.

 

We do alot of "free feeding" where, I hold up the pad in a certain combination, and you spontaneously throw it. We also have a drill where you throw whatever you want, and we read it, then block with the pads accordingly. Both of these help to break the limiting strike patterns and targets.

 

By example, judo became a dominating martial art in Japan primarily because techniques could be practiced with full fury, and yet 'safely.' Due to this, judokas had a far firmer grasp of what works, and were able to train their muscles to be sensitive to changes during a high-tension, high energy conflict. When posed against other jujutsu practitioners that had merely undergone training drills at half-assembly and little to no sparring, judokans just ate them up.

 

bingo. you beat me to that one. Great minds think alike

[battousai16]

i'd say one of the larger differences is mentally; when you're sparring it's a (generally) friendly competition between two trained and ready people in a controlled environment. in a confrontation, well... y'know the drill. anything goes, dunno the enemy, blah blah...

[Sasori_Te]

I think the reverse of what Sevenstar and White Warlock are saying is also true. The reason that many martial artists have their rear-end handed to them in an actual confrontation by an untrained person is mindset. The untrained can be scared and just unload on a trained person. The way most martial arts train doesn't allow for this kind of explosive, all-out, anything goes attack. Free sparring certainly won't do it. Well rounded training will. You need varied drills including "blind" drills to take your reactions to the next level. As far as fighting a professional fighter such as Chuck Liddell or any of those guys, anyone that doesn't train that hard might be (might) in trouble. Thankfully most of us will never know that because these highly trained guys dont usually make a habit of going out and starting trouble. However, I don't usually think too much of an instructor that goes out of their way to tell me how tough he is or how unbeatable their art is. Can you say EGO?! Just my take on things.

[G95champ]

If you have ever played sports be it football, basketball, or water polo. Its the differance in practice and a game. When you spar even if in a tourney you know your not going to get hurt and its all for fun. In a game or a fight you know if you don't show up your going to lose and could be hurt bad.

[Vito]

the thing about sparring is, you can spar like a tkd fighter like in their tournaments with little or no contact doin your flashy crap with all your rules, and youll come out with nothing learned. you can spar like a boxer or kickboxer and come out a better fighter, because though some rules were there, you were still fighting and using movies youd want to use in a real fight. the same is true in bjj- you can spar and practice moves and stop when a guy taps out, or throw a person on their back; but in real life you dont tap out you break their arm or whatever, and you dont throw on a mat you throw in the ground, maybe on their head, instead.

 

in conclusion: if you spar in a real martial art (muay thai, boxing, wrestling, bjj, sambo, things like that) youll get better. if you spar in something like no contact kungfu, tkd, do karate tournaments, etc... youll get beat down on the street. i know they say 'we train for street fighting because we practice eye gouges etc etc,' but they dont really practice them- and when they try to use them on a boxer theyll get knocked out.

[wing chun kuen man]

Just like to make a basic point about sparring and that is if practiced correctly and as realistically as possible, then it will be of immense benefit to the martial artist, assuming that all the other training involved in his particular art, be they forms, kihon or conditionning exercises are correctly practiced as well.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[SevenStar]

I think the reverse of what Sevenstar and White Warlock are saying is also true. The reason that many martial artists have their rear-end handed to them in an actual confrontation by an untrained person is mindset. The untrained can be scared and just unload on a trained person.

 

I agree with that.

 

The way most martial arts train doesn't allow for this kind of explosive, all-out, anything goes attack. Free sparring certainly won't do it.

 

I disagree with that. point style sparring won't do it, but the type of full contact training you do in boxing, bjj, muay thai, shuai chiao, judo, etc. most certainly will.

 

Well rounded training will. You need varied drills including "blind" drills to take your reactions to the next level.

 

you can't go full power on a drill either. A good example is "bowing" from shuai chiao. Basically, it's a shoulder throw. In judo, bjj, etc. I can shoulder throw with full power in sparring. The shuai chiao version, however, involves breaking the arm as you are throwing them. Can you do this full power? of course not. So, when sparring, they adapt the technique to a safer version, more similar to the judo variant.

 

As far as fighting a professional fighter such as Chuck Liddell or any of those guys, anyone that doesn't train that hard might be (might) in trouble. Thankfully most of us will never know that because these highly trained guys dont usually make a habit of going out and starting trouble.

 

Which is part of my whole point on styles - it's the training method that matters. Most MMA and sport schools IME do train like that. They have to in order to win. Our schedules still aren't on par with a pro fighter, but it's beyond what many TMA schools I've experienced do.