To strike or to grapple

[White Warlock]

Grappling offers alot of benefits in a street confrontation - maybe more than many people realize.

Agreed 7Star, assuming you can grapple.

[47MartialMan]

Guess it's time for someone to be different. I pick grappling, even though I am primarily a striker. Contrary to angela, I've seen several fights go to the ground. Now, some things to consider:

 

How many fights have you seen and been in, say, 30 years?

 

Do you live in a high crime rated area?

 

1. most people who are untrained are poor strikers. Between movement and keeping your guard up, I put my odds on the grappler taking the untrained fighter down before the untrained guy manages to land something solid.

 

But we aren not talking about untrained strikers.

 

The point will be mute if we say the same about ubtrained grapplers

 

Of course a grappler has a possibility of taking down a untrained guy

 

So does a trsined striker, etc....

 

(although I seen a bar fight with a untrained guy laying out a grappler with a chair...the grappler was a friend of mine)

 

Which brings me to another point:

 

In the course of per situation, the fight is halted by others before it continues...whhich I did to stop my friend's fight. He was very hurt and I didnt want to see him busted uo more.

 

2. This is something that people tend to overlook - the term grappling does not imply groundwork. I am a judoka before a bjj exponent - I like to throw and sweep. Even though not all fights go to the ground, many of them end up in at least a clinch, and all of them are in such close proximity that I can initiate a clinch. From there, I can throw, sweep, etc.

 

Youre right, but this almost contradics your beginning statement

 

Also, by having that contact with him, I know where he is and can control him - in the case of a multiple attacker scenario, I may be able to control him enough to keep him between myself and the other attackers. I may not have that luxury from striking distance.

 

You have more form a striking distance. If you fail, you are still on your feet to flee. If you on the ground when multiople attackers, this is the point....hardly effective on the ground when many are above you.

 

3. the possibility that you do get taken down. So let's say the impossible happens - you end up on the ground. Now what? with grappling, I know how to get up quickly and efficiently if I want to. A striker does not have that luxury. That skill alone will prove invaluable in multiple attacker situations.

 

We practice getting off the ground in sparring. When we spar, if someone falls to the ground, we are trying to kick them while they still down...advanced classes of course.

 

4. tactics - If I am standing against a striker, I can cover when strikes come in. Also, since we are standing, I have free range of motion, unless I'm cornered. All things considered, we are on equal ground. You have all of your limbs and so do I. You have a chance to run and so do I. Even though you are the striker, I have a chance of landing that lucky shot that knocks you out. On the ground, the odds are in the grappler's favor - no equal ground there.If I have you controlled, you can't move. It's a lot easier to land a lucky punch than it is to land a lucky arm break, choke, secure pin, etc.

 

How can you run if you are in the ground? The oint is not to chose between them. It depends on the situation and YOUR opponent.

 

5. environmental factors - crap happens - it's murphy's law and a fact of life. people love to bring up the "glass on the ground" argument. you have similar hazards while standing - you're in a bar and there is broken glass on the floor. You're in a bar, remember, so that glass had to have some liquid in it. You slip and fall. Crap happens. We are in the same bar, and you are backpedalling and trip over a bar stool. Crap happens. That same bar has a nice wall that I think would be even prettier if it had your blood on it, so I slam it into said wall repeatedly. Crap happens. You can't control the environmental factors involved, regardless of whether you are striking or grappling.

 

That same bar has a nice wall that I think would be even prettier if it had your blood on it, so I slam it into said wall repeatedly. Is this ground grappling?

 

6. weapons - we all hate to deal with these. But, as I said, crap happens. If I am facing someone with a knife and have no choice but to fight, I WANT to be close to him - as close as possible. If I am close to him, I have a chance to control him. If there is space between us, I can't control the weapon hand an am more likely to get cut.

 

I agree to a point, unless I pick up something to defend myself.

 

But what do you do if that someone had the knife place on a loved one's throat?

 

In the case of blunt weapons, I still want to be as close as possible. weapons like that require space to build enough power to produce a damaging strike. The closer I am, the less power he can produce with the weapon.

 

I agree

 

Grappling offers alot of benefits in a street confrontation - maybe more than many people realize.

I agree, that's why it will be idea to be versitile. Skilled in BOTH.

 

I agree with White Warlock Quote:Agreed 7Star, assuming you can grapple.What makes one (striker or grappler) assume they would never face or use both situations?

[SevenStar]

How many fights have you seen and been in, say, 30 years?

 

Do you live in a high crime rated area?

 

Several. Between working security in the past and living in a high crime, area, I seen and had my share. I live in memphis, which has been high ranked in murder, car theft and rape. I've chased down crooks, stopped men from beating women, witnessed drive bys...

 

But we aren not talking about untrained strikers.

 

I would say the same of a trained striker, provided he has no knowledge of takedown defense.

 

The point will be mute if we say the same about ubtrained grapplers

 

see above about trained strikers.

 

Of course a grappler has a possibility of taking down a untrained guy

 

So does a trsined striker, etc....

 

he also has the possibility of taking down a trained striker. Once again, see above.

 

(although I seen a bar fight with a untrained guy laying out a grappler with a chair...the grappler was a friend of mine)

 

I've seen similar - like I stated in my original post, crap happens. I've seen way more trained strikers get dropped than grapplers, however.

 

 

Youre right, but this almost contradics your beginning statement

 

nah. My begininng statement was that I'd bet money that the grappler could take him down first. A takedown doesn't imply that the grappler goes to the ground as well.

 

You have more form a striking distance. If you fail, you are still on your feet to flee.

 

Maybe. you could be cornered. And the trade off you make for that extra space is that you sacrifice control.

 

If you on the ground when multiople attackers, this is the point....hardly effective on the ground when many are above you

 

When you are facing multiple attackers, no one situation is ideal - the odds are against you. However, the chances of you ending up on the ground in such a situation is great, as there are more people to attack you, drag you down, push you down, etc. As stated in one of my points, How efficiently can the non-grappler get up when he's on the ground? How efficienlty can he shield himself? for example, I am fighting three guys, end up on the ground and bring one with me. He's in my guard. I sure as heck don't want to be on the ground, but now these other guys are encroaching. By keeping him close in my guard, I can shield myself from any major damage from kicks and stomps from the others as he is covering my centerline and the ground is covering my back. Now I need to keep my head tucked until I see an opportunity to sweep the guy and get back to my feet. I may or may not have that chance, but either way, I am more shielded from danger than I would have been had I not been able to do that.

 

We practice getting off the ground in sparring. When we spar, if someone falls to the ground, we are trying to kick them while they still down...advanced classes of course.

 

We did such things also. However, that implies that you were kocked down or thrown and had space. What if both of you went to the ground? The grappler is still equipped to get up efficiently. Here's a question - how would you get off the ground in the scenario you described? Describe it to me.

 

How can you run if you are in the ground?

 

you can't. That's my point. If the striker ends up on the ground, what's he gonna do? he can't run away. The grappler will be able to get up efficiently, and then he may indeed be able to run.

 

The oint is not to chose between them. It depends on the situation and YOUR opponent.

 

that's beyond the scope of this discussion. The topic here is should you strike or grapple.

 

That same bar has a nice wall that I think would be even prettier if it had your blood on it, so I slam it into said wall repeatedly. Is this ground grappling?

 

No, but it is standing grappling. grappling is grappling as I said beofre - too many people assume grappling only takes place on the ground.

 

But what do you do if that someone had the knife place on a loved one's throat?

 

The same thing that you'd do - nothing physically. I'd try to talk them into letting the loved one go.

 

Where am I? In front of him, or behind him?

 

I agree with White Warlock Quote:Agreed 7Star, assuming you can grapple.What makes one (striker or grappler) assume they would never face or use both situations?

 

You may very well use both. But the topic of this thread is to choose one or the other - either strike or grapple, you can't do both.

Edited September 5, 2004 by SevenStar

[White Warlock]

Gad! I truly hate the way you two write within a quote. So friggin' hard to differentiate what is a quoted and what is responded. Especially when you make bold/italics mistakes, as both of you did with the above two posts.

 

*grumble*

[White Warlock]

*grumbles some more*

 

(+1 post count)

[battousai16]

*grumbles some more*

 

(+1 post count)

 

 

 

personally, i'd rather have some good Cross Country running skills under my belt. but if it came down to it, i think i'd have to choose striking because, to be honest, that's where my base is and i'm biased. i can admit it. i have knowledge of take downs and ground fighting and joint locks and clinches, but i'm best at striking. with multiple attackers i'd think i'd have a better chance, and i think it's easier to keep moving, which is important in a confrontation IMO. keeps the energy up. so yeah, striking. but, of course, ideal is to use both or, even better, none at all

[Drunken_Apprentice]

Could this be where aikido / hapkido / aikijujitsu or any other "standing grappling" forms come in handy? Personally I like the idea of using someone as a weapon by throwing them into another person if necessary. Besides, that would probably end up in fewer broken hand bones.

 

I tend to agree with SevenStar, who brought up some great points ... grappling doesn't necessarily mean going to the ground, but it doe involve throw and takedowns ... and definitely implies some ground competency in case you end up there.

 

My vote is grappling, provided you know how to stay mobile.

[White Warlock]

Yes DA. In my case, i tend to have a set line-up of actions for a confrontation, which is of course modified based on circumstances. But it starts out with me distracting the assailant first, possibly by tossing coins in their face, then entering in immediately with strikes and grabs, circling behind them and either putting them in a sleeper hold as i drop to the ground, or throwing them, using my momentum, into whatever seems a viable article for pain. I've practiced this series of attacks plenty of times, so it's rather instinctual. Do note, it is also a combination of both strike and grapple, with one 'option' being to go to the ground.

 

Well... i'm enjoying these tangents. How about you?

[SevenStar]

My bad!!! I usually don't make mistakes like that when I am bolding. I post that way because it's easier (IMO) for people to keep up with my responses to multiple points if I post right under them.

[SevenStar]

fixed it. And by telling you that I fixed it, I upped my post count also.