Shorin Ryuu Posted September 3, 2004 Posted September 3, 2004 Shorinryu Sensei, I'm flattered that you appreciate some of my posts...both you and 47MartialMan have been training longer than I have been alive...I have simply been blessed by wonderful circumstance to have had an excellent instructor (who really loved martial arts history and comparative studies of martial arts as well, which is probably where I get all this from) when I first really began doing martial arts and have had encounters (and good instructors in general) with excellent martial artists along the way. At any rate, the difference between Shorinji-ryu, Kobayashi-ryu, Chubu Shorin-ryu, and Ryukyu Shorin-ryu and plain Shorin-Ryu... Shorinji-ryu (and variations) as a rule, with some exceptions I'm sure, are mixtures of Japanese and Okinawan karate. From what I've read, they stem mainly from Japanese students of Kyan Chotoku. One of the main students of his was Joen Nakazato (not to be confused with other Nakazato's in karate) Kobayashi Shorin Ryu is one of the 4 main branches of Shorin Ryu (that term used by Chibana Chosin) and has three main branches of its own. The three branches came about because before his death, Chibana Chosin promoted 4 students to the rank of 9th dan but never appointed a successor. I believe the 4th one was kind of old, so he never started his own Kobayashi system. The kanji (chinese characters) for Kobayashi and Shorin are the same... Chubu Shorin Ryu is a result of the failed efforts to unify karate on Okinawa (the style system and attempts at unification of karate even now are less that 70 years old...). One of these organizations, the All Japan Karate Federation branch on Okinawa fell apart, and the members of the central area (literally, chubu) became known as part of Chubu Shorin Ryu... Shorin Ryu refers to just the general style of Shorin Ryu on Okinawa (usually based on students of Sokon Matusumura) OR it could be what Shimabukuro Zenryo (or Shimabuku, not to be confused with the thousand other famous Shimabukuro's in karate) called his style before he joined the All Japan Karate Federation and later became known as Chubu Shorin Ryu... Ryu Kyu Shorin Ryu...founded by students of yet another Shimabukuro...this time of the Eizo variety...His teacher was Kyan Chotoku, I believe. As far as the practical differences between the ones that you asked me... Kyan Chotoku was more of a tomari-te practitioner, which meant his things were a blend perhaps of naha-te and shuri-te techniques...tomari-te has for the most part disappeared, as it was blended into shuri-te. What does all this mean? The differences are probably not that much. The more japanese ones (shorinji ryu) are probably a little less "purely Okinawan". At their heart, their principles are most likely very similar, with different flavor. For example, I trained for a year in Matsumura Shorin Ryu (I'm a Kobayashi Shorin Ryu guy myself) and they had a different flavor to doing things. As Shorinryu Sensei can attest, their stances were a little higher than Kobayashi stances and some blocks were taught using both bones of the forearm rather than one. However, almost everything between the two was immediately recognizable (kata, techniques, and most of all, principles). A long, ranting answer to your question...but if they are taught properly, I'm sure you wouldn't find too much difference between those styles. Martial Arts Blog:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/
Shorinryu Sensei Posted September 3, 2004 Posted September 3, 2004 Very impressive lineage...... Well, I think so. My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
harleyt26 Posted September 4, 2004 Posted September 4, 2004 Hello Shorinryu sensei,What system of kobudo do you train in? Your description of how to hold the bo sounds more like the Taira/Akamine style of Ryu Kyu Kobudo than Yamani or Matayoshi.Just curious because some of your posts seem very similar to what we do in the Tesshinkan.I have friends that do Matayoshi they do not seem to stick as much to the rule of thirds and slide their hands over the bo more to produce a whipping action,I am not familiar with the Yamani Ryu system but from some old video I have seen it seems that they might prefer to stay to one end of the bo and use the length of it more. migi kamae,migi bo kihon ichi
47MartialMan Posted September 4, 2004 Posted September 4, 2004 Shorin Ryuu Very impressive discription.... Do you have any reference links/books?
Shorinryu Sensei Posted September 4, 2004 Posted September 4, 2004 Hello Shorinryu sensei,What system of kobudo do you train in? Your description of how to hold the bo sounds more like the Taira/Akamine style of Ryu Kyu Kobudo than Yamani or Matayoshi.Just curious because some of your posts seem very similar to what we do in the Tesshinkan.I have friends that do Matayoshi they do not seem to stick as much to the rule of thirds and slide their hands over the bo more to produce a whipping action,I am not familiar with the Yamani Ryu system but from some old video I have seen it seems that they might prefer to stay to one end of the bo and use the length of it more. In all honesty, I've never heard the kobudo part of my training referred to as anything other than kobudo. I know Sensei Kuda trained under Hohan Soken, but had also trained under several other people in kobudo...as is common on Okinawa. I believe I heard somewhere that Sensei Kuda's family had their own version of kobudo, but don't quote me on that. I'll contact my Sensei and see if he can enlighten me on that some more. He trained on Okinawa with Sensei Kuda for quite some time, so may be much more familiar with this than I am. My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
Shorin Ryuu Posted September 4, 2004 Posted September 4, 2004 I have friends that do Matayoshi they do not seem to stick as much to the rule of thirds and slide their hands over the bo more to produce a whipping action,I am not familiar with the Yamani Ryu system but from some old video I have seen it seems that they might prefer to stay to one end of the bo and use the length of it more. I do Yamani Ryu (Shuguro Nakazato, head of the branch of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu that I am in trained heavily under Masami Chinen) and you are correct (although there is an observation I would like to add). In the beginning, the "rule of thirds" is observed, but at the more advanced levels, there is a lot more extension of the bo during a technique. However, the hands do not stay at one end, but can switch to the middle or even the other end depending on the technique. In other words, the bo may be extended out so that the end is only a fist length behind the back. In the next technique, it may be that short end that is all the way out and the opposite end that is only a fist distance past the back...you get the picture... Another characteristic, as I mentioned in one of the other posts, is to use the circular edge of the end of the bo as a blade. During the execution of a technique, the waist (actually gamaku, but that is a lengthy discussion...) is employed to create a snap and a rotation, which causes the circular edge of the bo at the tip to "cut" into the opponent. This is at the more advanced levels, of course... As far as the Matsumura weapons lineage...correct me if I am wrong Shorinryu Sensei, but I think that the Matsumura family had its own weapons system?, which I'm sure continually changed and adapted as each successor trained under other people as well...the ryu system was never a part of Okinawan te tradition, and that was even more true of kobudo. Is your Kuda Sensei Kuda Yuichi? I just saw his name in a book I was reading and was wondering if he is the same one, as he was a student of Hohan Soken. 47MartialMan:As much as I would like to say that all of what I posted up there was from memory...only about half of it was. The other half I doublechecked with Mark Bishop's Okinawan Karate, John Sells' Unante: The Secrets of Karate, and part of an old manual my old instructor wrote and gave to me years ago (it literally has over a hundred works cited...). I find John Sells' book to be one of the most exhaustive ones out there that detail the evolution of karate and various styles in existence (and non-existence). Martial Arts Blog:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/
Shorinryu Sensei Posted September 5, 2004 Posted September 5, 2004 In the beginning, the "rule of thirds" is observed, but at the more advanced levels, there is a lot more extension of the bo during a technique. However, the hands do not stay at one end, but can switch to the middle or even the other end depending on the technique. In other words, the bo may be extended out so that the end is only a fist length behind the back. In the next technique, it may be that short end that is all the way out and the opposite end that is only a fist distance past the back...you get the picture... Dang! There goes another one of our secrets! This is correct.As far as the Matsumura weapons lineage...correct me if I am wrong Shorinryu Sensei, but I think that the Matsumura family had its own weapons system?, which I'm sure continually changed and adapted as each successor trained under other people as well...the ryu system was never a part of Okinawan te tradition, and that was even more true of kobudo. I'll admit that my knowledge of the kobudo ancestry is very sketcy at best, but I believe this is correct also.Is your Kuda Sensei Kuda Yuichi? I just saw his name in a book I was reading and was wondering if he is the same one, as he was a student of Hohan Soken. Yes. My origional sensei was Dennis Miller, who was a student of Sensei Kuda Yuichi on Okinawa for a few years. If you'd like to check out our meager associations website, it's: http://www.geocities.com/rohai.geo/page.html I'm #7 on the list of dojo memberships, and yes, that really is my last name! Most of the way down the page you'll see some pictures of Sensei Kuda taken WAY back in June of 1978. I'm the tall, skinny guy with him in a couple of them. My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
Shorin Ryuu Posted September 5, 2004 Posted September 5, 2004 Thanks for the info! I too dislike the political games in Okinawa (although I am way too much of a small fry right now to even have to worry about any of that). Ironic, as the style system was an attempt to end some rivalries between masters...oh well. Having an opportunity to train with Kuda Yuichi must have been something. I'm sure he is fondly remembered by all. I read the little history posted on the website. I'm obviously a big history buff (in general as well as martial arts) so it was enjoyable. Martial Arts Blog:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/
Shorinryu Sensei Posted September 5, 2004 Posted September 5, 2004 Having an opportunity to train with Kuda Yuichi must have been something. I'm sure he is fondly remembered by all. Yes, Sensei Kuda is surly missed by thosethat knew and trained with him. His first visit to the USA was at the invitation of my instructor, Sensei Dennis Miller in Havre, Montana in 1978. We had a very intensive 3 week training seseeion (6 days/week), and at the conclusion of it, my Sensei was promoted to Sandan, and I was promoted to Shodan. I also had the oppoortunity to work with him again in Seattle for a week in 1990 where I was promoted to my Sandan. That was the last time I saw Sensei Kuda. Sensei Kuda was a soft spoken, gentle man, and I was saddened when I learned of his passing. My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
47MartialMan Posted September 7, 2004 Posted September 7, 2004 It is interesting to see how a thread goes off topic..
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