TSDMGK_K40 Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 just my $0.02 on the 16yr old 4th dan "issue" It is widely known/accepted that rank progression is faster in TKD than it is in Tang Soo Do, but I'll still compare the two. I earned my first dan in Spring 1992. Testing for my next three ranks at the minimum time requirements each time, I earned my 4th dan in Spring 2001 ( at the age of almost 28 ). I'll be first eligible (minimum time requirements) for 5th dan in Spring 2006. IMO, 10 years from 10th gup to 4th dan seems a bit quick, but if thats what your style does, so be it. I don't really have a problem with a 16 year old 4th dan, but I wouldn't encourage it either. I know 3 of my 'peers' in my style that earned their 4th dans at 18 (or 19). They are all exceptional martial artists and deserve to be 4th dans just as much as I do. TSDMGK Discussion Boardhttp://www.kodanja.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangSooGuy Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 I guess it all depends on what 4th dan does in fact represent... I started training in 1985, got my first Dan in 1989, 2nd Dan in 1991, 3rd in 1994... 4th....2003. official 4th dan master ranking...this year I didn't s top training at all during that time either...it's just that 4th Dan traditionally meant master rank inour system. If you aren't contributing heavily to the art, association, etc, you don't test for 4th Dan. If you don't own a studio, you don't get 4th Dan master rank, ever, and you can't progress beyond 4th dan instructor. The tsting process is also a minimum of 2 years for 4th dan, 3 years for 4th Dan master. You can't even get to be a 4th dan in our system unless you are least 22...and that's pushing it. Basically, it all just comes down to set of requirements. I don't have a problem with the idea, I just have a problem with the public perception that all dan ranks are created equal. They aren't. My 4th dan may have been a lot harder to attain than someone else's, and may have been easier to attain than someone in another system. ..as for the kids thing...I don't have any....but if I did, they would train if and when they were ready for it. i wouldn't force it upon them, but I do think it is valuable for children, and would definitely pass on the values, and make sure they had some basic understanding of awareness and self-defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfoe83 Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 my son started 3 months ago and he is now a yellow 3 stripe...is this good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDMGK_K40 Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 If you aren't contributing heavily to the art, association, etc, you don't test for 4th Dan. If you don't own a studio, you don't get 4th Dan master rank, ever, and you can't progress beyond 4th dan instructor. Just curious, what is the difference between 4th dan master rank, and 4th dan instructor. We don't have that. When you test for 4th dan, if your instructor approves you can also test for Sa Bom. Also, I don't agree with not letting people progress beyond 4th dan if they don't own a studio. I know many people that are excellent kodanja members that don't own studios. In fact, in my dojang there are around 12 kodanja members, myself included, that are just students. TSDMGK Discussion Boardhttp://www.kodanja.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangSooGuy Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 If you aren't contributing heavily to the art, association, etc, you don't test for 4th Dan. If you don't own a studio, you don't get 4th Dan master rank, ever, and you can't progress beyond 4th dan instructor. Just curious, what is the difference between 4th dan master rank, and 4th dan instructor. We don't have that. When you test for 4th dan, if your instructor approves you can also test for Sa Bom. Also, I don't agree with not letting people progress beyond 4th dan if they don't own a studio. I know many people that are excellent kodanja members that don't own studios. In fact, in my dojang there are around 12 kodanja members, myself included, that are just students. Well, once upon a time there was no 4th dan instructor rank, only 4th dan master, and you couldn't progress past 3rd Dan unless you were a studio owner ( a studio owner is defined as anyone running there own school, out of a YMCA, health club, or commercial, etc who has 25 or more registered students) We got to a point where there were a lot of 3rd Dans who could not progress due to this requirement, and teh association decided to implement a 4th Dan rank which is 4th stripe on the black belt, but not the master rank, which is signified by a central red line. It was a mistake in my opinion, and a temporary patch on a problem that will arise again when there are large numbers of 4th dans who cannot test for master rank. I used to believe as you did, that it was an unfair requirement, until I actually went through the process. i actually had to move across the state to start a school because there were too many in the area I was in. However, having been through the process, I see why it is the way it is. Master rank is reserved only for those who are willing to sacrifice and dedicate at least some portion of their lives to the art and to perpetuating the art through instruction. It's not a perfect system, and it may be in need of revision, but I understand why it is the way it is, and I accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDMGK_K40 Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Well, once upon a time there was no 4th dan instructor rank, only 4th dan master, and you couldn't progress past 3rd Dan unless you were a studio owner ( a studio owner is defined as anyone running there own school, out of a YMCA, health club, or commercial, etc who has 25 or more registered students) We got to a point where there were a lot of 3rd Dans who could not progress due to this requirement, and teh association decided to implement a 4th Dan rank which is 4th stripe on the black belt, but not the master rank, which is signified by a central red line. You are part of World Tang Soo Do, right? I don't think I've ever met a World TSD dan with 4 stripes on their dan belt. And I am from the northeast, so I see many dans/masters from other orgs. I also understand fully what the red stripe in the center of the belt means, as the midnight blue belt that I wear has that little red stipe through the center.It was a mistake in my opinion, and a temporary patch on a problem that will arise again when there are large numbers of 4th dans who cannot test for master rank. I used to believe as you did, that it was an unfair requirement, until I actually went through the process. i actually had to move across the state to start a school because there were too many in the area I was in. However, having been through the process, I see why it is the way it is. Master rank is reserved only for those who are willing to sacrifice and dedicate at least some portion of their lives to the art and to perpetuating the art through instruction. It's not a perfect system, and it may be in need of revision, but I understand why it is the way it is, and I accept it. I can't agree with you about the 'dedication and sacrifice' issue. I don't own a studio, or have 25 students, yet I feel that I am no less a 'master' of my style. I've been in my system since 1981, I attend numerous association (https://www.TSDMGK.com) events each year, train with my instructor on a weekly basis, teach for him whenever needed, sit on dan test shim sa boards several times a year, ran a full time studio before I graduated college, attend our 5 day Kodanja shim sa each year, etc... Just my opinion. TSDMGK Discussion Boardhttp://www.kodanja.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kicks Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Our dojang my son and I are not considered masters. A lot of the other schools around here do consider 4 dan a master, but not us. The reason is that it takes until you are a 5th dan to have gone through the entire program twice. Once learning it and then again teaching it. So by then you are required to have mastered all the requirements for all the ranks. when you create the world's largest trailer park, you're going to have tornadoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDMGK_K40 Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Our dojang my son and I are not considered masters. A lot of the other schools around here do consider 4 dan a master, but not us. The reason is that it takes until you are a 5th dan to have gone through the entire program twice. Once learning it and then again teaching it. So by then you are required to have mastered all the requirements for all the ranks. Well, I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, but I've heard other style talk about 5th dan being a master, not 4th dan. To each their own. My comment to you is, in my style of Tang Soo Do, it takes a minimum of 13 years from 10th gup to 4th dan. That would be a minimum of 18 years from 10th gup to 5th dan. Just as a side note, in my style of Tang Soo Do, 6th dan (minimum of 24 years) is considered to be a senior master, or senior Kodanja. Now in your style, it looks as though you can go from 10th gup to 4th dan in around 9 years (if my math is correct), so that probably puts your TKD 5th dan at about the minimum 13 year mark if I am correct. Starting to see where I am going? TSDMGK Discussion Boardhttp://www.kodanja.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kicks Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 TSDMGK_K40:it looks as though you can go from 10th gup to 4th dan in around 9 years (if my math is correct) check your math. it takes 11.5 years, and I think that's too quick, but that's the system we're involved in. It breaks down like this: 2.5 years to 1st dan wait 2 yeas test for 2nd dan. Running Total = 4.5 yrs wait 3 years to test for 3rd dan. Running Total = 7.5 yrs wait 4 years to test for 4th dan. Running total = 11.5 yrs wait 5 years to test for 5th dan (Master). Running total = 16.5 yrs. And that's only if you pass every test (each black belt advancement consist of 4 different test held 2 months apart), get your class hours in, get your teaching time in, and show you possess the tenents of TKD. This is actually longer than Kukkiwon requirements for Dan promotions. We have been actively involved in TKD since Jan 1993 and were just promoted to 4th dan in June 2004 (11.5 yrs), usually attending 3 - 4 classes a week (5 during test periods) and never skipping or failing a test. can I lay this to rest now? when you create the world's largest trailer park, you're going to have tornadoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDMGK_K40 Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 TSDMGK_K40:it looks as though you can go from 10th gup to 4th dan in around 9 years (if my math is correct) check your math. it takes 11.5 years, and I think that's too quick, but that's the system we're involved in. It breaks down like this: 2.5 years to 1st dan wait 2 yeas test for 2nd dan. Running Total = 4.5 yrs wait 3 years to test for 3rd dan. Running Total = 7.5 yrs wait 4 years to test for 4th dan. Running total = 11.5 yrs wait 5 years to test for 5th dan (Master). Running total = 16.5 yrs. And that's only if you pass every test (each black belt advancement consist of 4 different test held 2 months apart), get your class hours in, get your teaching time in, and show you possess the tenents of TKD. This is actually longer than Kukkiwon requirements for Dan promotions. We have been actively involved in TKD since Jan 1993 and were just promoted to 4th dan in June 2004 (11.5 yrs), usually attending 3 - 4 classes a week (5 during test periods) and never skipping or failing a test. can I lay this to rest now? No need to get defensive, I'm not knocking it. I do what my style dictates, you do what your dictates... In my math, 1993 starting at white belt to 2003 (the link you posted) testing for 4th dan is 10 years, but obviously I missed something somewhere. TSDMGK Discussion Boardhttp://www.kodanja.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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