McDojos.

[Coco]

Okay, before I start, I am posting this because I had a very long and serious talk with my instructor today. Lately, I have been staying many extra hours and talking alot with him, and I would like to express what I feel. Of course, this post is open for opinions or comments. Also, note that anything and everything said here is based on my own opinion and will not apply to everyone.

 

McDojo, is a simple term many people use to describe a "bad dojo". What does a bad dojo have?

 

Here are some things -

 

1.Many YOUNG high ranked kids.

 

2.Bad technique on many of the darker belts.

 

3.Expensive testing/fees.

 

4.Lots of advertisement/ways to get money from you.

 

5.Soft training.

 

Guess what? All of these apply to my school. Does it make it a McDojo? No. Would it make most schools a McDojo? Probably.

 

The point im trying to make is, the teacher dosnt make a McDojo. You do.

 

Let me explain -

 

For the last 12 months or so, I have been training on shito-ryu. I have seen white belts come and go, and some get to lower belts and leave. Tests on my school are 55 USD for white, and it keeps increasing. I just payed my test for my 4th kyu. 90$ was the cost. I felt the classes werent pushing students enough, and students could get away with doing the techniques half-right. Tournaments and pictures were being sold at over 50$ each, and more and more kids under 10 years old were getting to brown belt. I didnt know what to do.

 

Thats when I started staying after class. Learning new katas on the internet, and practicing my stuff. Just yesterday, my teacher caught me doing Naifanchin Shodan(sp?). He was very suprised to see a green belt doing it, so he came over and corrected 2 or 3 errors I was making... Then he looked at me. At that moment I think he knew I didnt want a McDojo, I wanted to learn the art. He asked if I knew Juroku, and I said I did, then again he corrected me on some parts. He was very suprised and told me to come this morining, at 11:30AM.

 

Me, another green belt and a white belt showed up. We did regular class, but... I could see he was pushing us harder. We did techniques we never did before, and extra exercises. At the end of the class (around 12:30) He said we could stay and practice if we wanted. Me and the green belt went over all the katas we knew 2 times. I gladly tought him Juroku, Naifanchin Shodan and Heian Godan(all of these are suppsed to be on green/blue and blue belts). Finally, we all sat down and talked.

 

My teacher is from venezuela, and he said he trained HARD when he was over there. He said he ran 45 minutes a day, and then he remembered something. He got out a very old box he had in a corner, and got out a small booklet.It had all the test requirements for venezuela's tests on shito ryu, the same tests my sensei had taken. From white to yellow - there were SO many things, I bet it wouldve taken 3 hours to test.

 

So then, my sensai explained what I always had been wondering. Why is this dojo, a McDojo? -

 

He said american people are lazy(no offence), and if he were as tough as he should be, he would have no students AT ALL! He said americans want to do self defence and stuff, but dont wanna practice everyday, and some people dont like repetitions. Then, I told him I am willing to really work hard and tough, and learn everything I can. He gladly said he would teach me that whole book, and even make copies of the 100 vocabulary words I need to go to black belt(which is in about 2-3 years) and he told me to keep training hard(im the best student in his class.. by far). I told him if I were going to go to venezuela, I would be like an orange belt, but then he said I was as valuable as a green belt. He proved it too, he got out the test for green belt, and yes, I could do everything there, I could even do more, because for green belt you need Heian Nidan and Shodan, I know all Heians, and a few more.

 

In conclusion, the teacher isnt the one that makes you a non-skilled Martial Artist, you are. If your dojo trains soft and you just do some bag punching, do each punch as hard, strong and technical as you can, and never get lazy and stop. If you do 5 kicks a day, try to do them as perfect as possible. And, you cant blame the teacher if you go to your house and sit down and watch T.V all day, and not practice, you have to blame yourself.

 

As for the test gradings, most times the teacher dosnt put the price, but if your dojo belongs to an organization, the head of the organisation does. Thing about this though, is the money worth it? I think in my case, Yes.

 

If you think you arent learning enough, im sure 95% of any teacher will take extra time, and give you private lessons. Teachers NEED good students, students is what brings more people, students are the ones who win medals, students are the root of the dojo. What YOU have to do is train hard, and do your best, that is what will yell out to the teacher saying "I WANT TO LEARN!", and belive me, senseis arent stupid, they see this and the WILL help you out anytime you need.

 

Lately, as I alredy mentioned, I have trained harder than ever.I have run my legs out, broke my fingers punching, burnt my abs doing situps and I have done more pushups than ever in my life. I know I have passed my limit.

 

From this day on - I declare myself a REAL karateka.

 

From this day on - I declare my dojo a REAL Dojo.

 

 

 

Note - The things that have been said may not apply everyone, and arent meant to be offensive to anyone, in any ways.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Coco

[Shorinryu Sensei]

1.Many YOUNG high ranked kids.

 

2.Bad technique on many of the darker belts.

 

3.Expensive testing/fees.

 

4.Lots of advertisement/ways to get money from you.

 

5.Soft training.

 

Guess what? All of these apply to my school. Does it make it a McDojo? No. Would it make most schools a McDojo? Probably.

 

The point im trying to make is, the teacher dosnt make a McDojo. You do.

 

Tests on my school are 55 USD for white, and it keeps increasing. I just payed my test for my 4th kyu. 90$ was the cost. I felt the classes werent pushing students enough, and students could get away with doing the techniques half-right. Tournaments and pictures were being sold at over 50$ each, and more and more kids under 10 years old were getting to brown belt. I

 

So then, my sensai explained what I always had been wondering. Why is this dojo, a McDojo? -

 

He said american people are lazy(no offence), and if he were as tough as he should be, he would have no students AT ALL! He said americans want to do self defence and stuff, but dont wanna practice everyday, and some people dont like repetitions.

 

You said it yourself. You're in a McDojo. The fact that your sensei percieves Americans as lazy makes me wonder why he lives in this country, and why he's taking Americans money under false pretenses by operating a McDojo? SHAME ON HIM! And I'd say you're just as bad if you stay with him after coming to the realization that you are training in a McDojo.

 

Look, nobody has forced your sensei to teach inferior techniques, charge HUGE test fees and be soft on his students, did they? It was by HIS choice, and nobody else's that he does so. Right? Then who is at fault here? Us lazy Americans? Or a Greedy foreigner that see's easy pickings from the martial arts public that is paying his bills and assuming they aren't getting ripped off..which they apparently are!

[Luckykboxer]

the big problem i see is that your instructor is falsly passing people to a higher grade and using the excuse that americans are lazy to justify his greed to make more money. If a person can pass the requirements then they can pass, and visa versa if they cant then they shouldnt... It sounds to me he is just passing people /shrug

 

I would guess that his students are being lazy because hes not pushing them.

 

There is a big difference from pushing students to perform better, and beating the crap out of your students and forcing them to quit.

 

I will agree that most children and ordinary adults who take Karate do not want to get hurt, and do not want to feel pain from getting hit or kicked very hard, but i will disagree that they cannto be pushed to work harder, work crisper, work cleaner, learn and maintain their skills longer and improve on them.

 

Its about creating techniques to teach and push them to be better.

 

Sounds to me your instructor is also lazy and has given up on improving the students and is more intent on adding that hot tub in his backyard next winter....

[delta1]

I have to agree with SS and Lucky here.

 

Look, it is true that a good portion of the students in most schools are there mostly to pay the bills and keep the doors open. But that doesn't mean that there should be no standards for them, or that they shouldn't be pushed to be better. It doesn't even mean you accept everything that walks in the door with his check book. There is nothing wrong with an instructor giving extra to those students willing to work more. But there has to be some base standard that he will not compromise, otherwise he compromises everyones training, including the select few highly motivated stuents.

 

Another point about lazy students- a lot of learning is by example. If he has lazy students, he might ask himself why. And I don't buy the 'Lazy American' stereotype. We may be slipping some, but he's in a country that still out produces the next ten top producing countries in the world. That's not just chance or blessing, it takes work. If none of his students are producing, maybe he should look at management.

[Coco]

Damn your all against me XD! Dont worry, if you were in my position, youd understand. I just posted this for some people who are open minded to see, not for mad americans to flame me...

 

My teacher is trying to make a living. If it was as easy on venezuela, he wouldnt be here. He is there to TEACH, not to make sure you practice in your house. He DOES push us really hard, thats the reason we only have about 6 students in my class, but the reason he told me the stuff about americans is because I said I wanted to be pushed even harder, because the amount we usually do isnt as hard FOR ME anymore(which will probably leave 1 or 2 students). He agreed to give me extra classes, and as for the lower belts that suck, their moms wont let them quit, and if they dont pass, they come to complain. You should put yourself on his position.

 

Luckyboxer - He is pushing people, but damn lazy kids say they have too much homework or what not and they dont come to class, then they come back and arent used to it, so it seems to hard for them and they quit.

 

Delta - My teacher does follow curriculum, each kata/bunkai for the test must be done, as well as basics, and vocabulary. The reason they pass is because here, they dont ask for TOTALLY PERFECT technique, or not as close as in some places though, but a green belt here will know as much as a green belt anywhere. In my case, I probably know as much as many blue/brown belts. Maybe I didnt get my point through. My apologies.

[SevenStar]

Guess what? All of these apply to my school. Does it make it a McDojo? No. Would it make most schools a McDojo? Probably.

 

You sold out to the hype... If it looks like a roach and moves like a roach, then guess what? It's a roach. You are trying to deny that fact...

 

Okay, before I start, I am posting this because I had a very long and serious talk with my instructor today. Lately, I have been staying many extra hours and talking alot with him, and I would like to express what I feel. Of course, this post is open for opinions or comments.

 

all of these long talks probably had something to do with it.

 

1. you are trying to convince yourself you're not being served by a McSchool

 

2. Through the talks, he was actually able to convince you.

 

[/b]McDojo, is a simple term many people use to describe a "bad dojo". What does a bad dojo have?

 

Here are some things -

 

1.Many YOUNG high ranked kids.

 

2.Bad technique on many of the darker belts.

 

3.Expensive testing/fees.

 

4.Lots of advertisement/ways to get money from you.

 

5.Soft training.[/b]

 

you admit that all of these apply to your school, but yet somehow the definition of 'bad school' doesn't apply?? let's be real here.

 

 

 

The point im trying to make is, the teacher dosnt make a McDojo. You do.

 

you're right - I told my teacher not to push me. I told him to promote me when I didn't deserve it. I told him not to correct my techniques. I also told him to do the same thing for all of the other students... Once again, let's be real.

 

Let me explain -

 

For the last 12 months or so, I have been training on shito-ryu. I have seen white belts come and go, and some get to lower belts and leave. Tests on my school are 55 USD for white, and it keeps increasing. I just payed my test for my 4th kyu. 90$ was the cost. I felt the classes werent pushing students enough, and students could get away with doing the techniques half-right. Tournaments and pictures were being sold at over 50$ each, and more and more kids under 10 years old were getting to brown belt. I didnt know what to do.

 

you don't see a problem with any of this?

 

Thats when I started staying after class. Learning new katas on the internet, and practicing my stuff.

 

1. you don't attempt to learn katas off of the internet. you're asking to form bad habits. What if your teacher had not seen you? he wouldn't have been able to correct you.

 

Just yesterday, my teacher caught me doing Naifanchin Shodan(sp?). He was very suprised to see a green belt doing it, so he came over and corrected 2 or 3 errors I was making...

 

2. He shouldn't have corrected anything. He should have told you not to work on it anymore. Considering the level of proficiency you say your school's students tend to have, I KNOW that you need some improvement on your current material. That's what you should be working. When you are ready for another kata, he'll teach it to you. IMO, he was completely wrong for showing you that kata.

 

Then he looked at me. At that moment I think he knew I didnt want a McDojo, I wanted to learn the art.

 

If he cared anything about his students, he would assume that none of them want a McDojo. All he is doing is teaching them as little as possible for premium money.

 

Me, another green belt and a white belt showed up. We did regular class, but... I could see he was pushing us harder. We did techniques we never did before, and extra exercises. At the end of the class (around 12:30) He said we could stay and practice if we wanted. Me and the green belt went over all the katas we knew 2 times. I gladly tought him Juroku, Naifanchin Shodan and Heian Godan(all of these are suppsed to be on green/blue and blue belts). Finally, we all sat down and talked.

 

you shouldn't be teaching him anything that you just learned the day before...

 

So then, my sensai explained what I always had been wondering. Why is this dojo, a McDojo?

 

here's the non * answer - he cares more about money than his students.

 

 

 

He said american people are lazy(no offence), and if he were as tough as he should be, he would have no students AT ALL!

 

read: no students = no money. Therefore, instead of trying to break the mold and rasie the bar, he lowers himself and caters to the mainstream so that he can maintain enrollment and make money.

 

He said americans want to do self defence and stuff, but dont wanna practice everyday, and some people dont like repetitions.

 

He is right. However, You are paying him to learn. He is doing you a disservice by not teaching to the best of his ability. He should be working you, teaching you properly and trying to motivate you to want to practice more.

 

"some people will never be satisfied by the static standards, set by the masses; the masses have always been lethargic. They are unable to achieve greatness because it is beyond them to even... comprehend greatness"

 

your instructor should be trying to place his students into the better portion - those that aren't satisified with the status quo.

 

In conclusion, the teacher isnt the one that makes you a non-skilled Martial Artist, you are. If your dojo trains soft and you just do some bag punching, do each punch as hard, strong and technical as you can, and never get lazy and stop. If you do 5 kicks a day, try to do them as perfect as possible. And, you cant blame the teacher if you go to your house and sit down and watch T.V all day, and not practice, you have to blame yourself.

 

you have the right idea but the wrong frame of mind.

 

As for the test gradings, most times the teacher dosnt put the price, but if your dojo belongs to an organization, the head of the organisation does. Thing about this though, is the money worth it? I think in my case, Yes.

 

did the organization tell him to charge $50 for posters? And he's most likely in the organization by his own free will.

 

Teachers NEED good students, students is what brings more people, students are the ones who win medals, students are the root of the dojo. What YOU have to do is train hard, and do your best, that is what will yell out to the teacher saying "I WANT TO LEARN!", and belive me, senseis arent stupid, they see this and the WILL help you out anytime you need.

 

once again, right idea, wrong frame of mind.

 

- students NEED a good teacher so they can eventually become good. If you have natural talent and a sucky teacher, you will never reach your full potential.

 

- teachers train the students who win the medals

 

- alot of medals isn't an indicator of a good school

 

- the teacher is the root of the dojo. The students are the essence. Think of an apple tree. Can an apple grow on it's own? Nah. It's gotta be attached to a tree, which has roots... If the tree is strong and well taken care of, it produces nice fruit. The seeds will eventually become their own trees. An unkempt tree may produce bad fruit, or may not produce fruit at all. the root of the tree is the teacher. his apples represent him in either a positive or negative light. The students are his apples. If there are only two of you that he is training properly, then he has two good apples and a bunch of bad ones... It only takes one bad apple to make them all bad - your sensei is setting himself up to produce bad fruit.

 

broke my fingers punching

 

how did you break them?

 

From this day on - I declare myself a REAL karateka.

 

From this day on - I declare my dojo a REAL Dojo.

 

wake up neo...

 

will you take the red pill, or the blue one?

 

 

 

Note - The things that have been said may not apply everyone, and arent meant to be offensive to anyone, in any ways.

[Luckykboxer]

Delta - My teacher does follow curriculum, each kata/bunkai for the test must be done, as well as basics, and vocabulary. The reason they pass is because here, they dont ask for TOTALLY PERFECT technique, or not as close as in some places though, but a green belt here will know as much as a green belt anywhere. In my case, I probably know as much as many blue/brown belts. Maybe I didnt get my point through. My apologies.

 

Excuse me a minute while i mop the hypocracy off the floor.

 

you mean that he requires all the same specific curriculum as his teachers did, yet he allows it to be done poorly?

 

Sorry that is a bad teacher allowing bad students to kid themselves so he can make a buck... i am definitely not impressed and he definitely has you snowed

[Coco]

*sigh* Ok... Here I come again....

 

Seven star - If you had carefully read what I wrote, and if you had understood my points, you wouldnt have pointed out some stuff that I alredy explained, oviously...

 

"Guess what? All of these apply to my school. Does it make it a McDojo? No. Would it make most schools a McDojo? Probably.

 

You sold out to the hype... If it looks like a roach and moves like a roach, then guess what? It's a roach. You are trying to deny that fact... "

 

I clearly stated that the one who makes a McDojo a McDojo is a student, therefore I said that I have improved and learned alot more, so now, it isnt a McDojo for me...

 

"you admit that all of these apply to your school, but yet somehow the definition of 'bad school' doesn't apply?? let's be real here. "

 

We got 4 or 5 good students on my dojo. Every tournament we go to, we ALL get 1st and 2nd places (2nd place if another person from our dojo has gotten first), we are one of the best school around. We still have about 5 darker belts under 10 years old.

 

" read: no students = no money. Therefore, instead of trying to break the mold and rasie the bar, he lowers himself and caters to the mainstream so that he can maintain enrollment and make money. "

 

He needs to make a living. If you choose to train here, deal with it, if you think you arent being pushed too hard, talk to sensei, like I did. He lowers himself to a point where everyone will be satisfied (not too, hard, not too soft) but as I alredy freakin stated, the current level is way too much for some people... So they quit.

 

Well too much useless questions to reply,

 

REMINDER - Please try to fully understand that this is just a post about my views as a student, and may not apply to everyone. Before you reply, read what I wrote and dont as stupid questions which have alredy been answered, or have an implied answer.

 

Luckyboxer - I never stated that the curriculum could be performed poorly. I just stated that if your foot is turned at a 45 1/2 degree instead of 45 degree angle, you wont fail. (Yes, ive seen people fail at other dojos because their wide stands were 1 cm too close to the floor, or the back foot on a cat stand was wrong by a few degrees.)

 

Here is an example that will probably answer alot of your questions -

 

There is a kata named Sanchin. My sensei showed it to me, and said it helps your body alot because of the strength you need to put into it. He explained, that in the bunkai his sensai hit him really hard in various places (stomach, legs, etc) as he did it, and if he wasnt strong enough it would really hurt, or he might fall down(which means he fails the test). Would I be willing to push my limits this far? Yes. Would most americans do it? I think not. If it were up to me, I would be much harder on students, but thats because im getting used to karate now, but I must not be greedy, because I know alot of lighter belts wouldnt be able to keep up if the program got any harder.

[SevenStar]

*sigh* Ok... Here I come again....

 

Seven star - If you had carefully read what I wrote, and if you had understood my points, you wouldnt have pointed out some stuff that I alredy explained, oviously...

 

"Guess what? All of these apply to my school. Does it make it a McDojo? No. Would it make most schools a McDojo? Probably.

 

You sold out to the hype... If it looks like a roach and moves like a roach, then guess what? It's a roach. You are trying to deny that fact... "

 

I clearly stated that the one who makes a McDojo a McDojo is a student, therefore I said that I have improved and learned alot more, so now, it isnt a McDojo for me...

 

And I clearly stated that what you stated is wrong. I read what you said - and it was *. Any teacher worth his salt should be training his students to the best of his abilities, not slacking off and waiting for them to come to him for harder training.

 

We got 4 or 5 good students on my dojo. Every tournament we go to, we ALL get 1st and 2nd places (2nd place if another person from our dojo has gotten first), we are one of the best school around. We still have about 5 darker belts under 10 years old.

 

medals don't impress me... and if you are at a school that is slacking with the student base and it's the best in the area, then I feel sorry for your area.

 

He needs to make a living.

 

He does - I agree with that. But to do so at the expense of your students is shameful.

 

If you choose to train here, deal with it, if you think you arent being pushed too hard, talk to sensei, like I did. He lowers himself to a point where everyone will be satisfied (not too, hard, not too soft) but as I alredy freakin stated, the current level is way too much for some people... So they quit.

 

catering to the masses - McDojo.

 

Would most americans do it? I think not.

 

trust me, you're not that special. If you want, we can compare training regimens.

 

If it were up to me, I would be much harder on students, but thats because im getting used to karate now, but I must not be greedy, because I know alot of lighter belts wouldnt be able to keep up if the program got any harder.

 

keep thinking that way. Then, when you become a teacher, do something about it. Make the program progressive. It should be intense from the get go, and get more intense as they progress. Help them to succeed - you should do what your teacher did not.

[Luckykboxer]

Luckyboxer - I never stated that the curriculum could be performed poorly. I just stated that if your foot is turned at a 45 1/2 degree instead of 45 degree angle, you wont fail. (Yes, ive seen people fail at other dojos because their wide stands were 1 cm too close to the floor, or the back foot on a cat stand was wrong by a few degrees.)

 

Ok let me try again...

 

If a 45 Degree angle is perfect, and the right way to do it, and he is allowing something other then this to be acceptable, wouldnt that make it less then perfect, or the wrong way to do it?

 

In my school it goes like this....

 

1 + 1 = 2

 

not

 

1.2 + 1 = 2

 

does that make more sense?

 

It seems to me that he is allowing subpar performance in his students, which eventually will create Martial artists that may be teaching other students the wrong way to do it....

 

It doesnt seem very practical or proper to do to your students...

 

If students dont want to work as hard i can see having them take longer then normal to learn the curriculum, but to just pass them through because they kinda have the gest of it, seems really bad :/