47MartialMan Posted August 29, 2004 Posted August 29, 2004 proof....like in text/authors/books/websites....etc.... However, you are making sense to some of the things I had pondered.
Drunken Monkey Posted August 29, 2004 Posted August 29, 2004 hard.... the texts are mainly old chinese historic scripts and history books listing events and emporers and stuff. basically, modern transaltions of the old imperial records and things. there are other articles online. like i said. have a look at the histories of pan nam wing chun, yuen kay shan wing chun and hung fa yi wing chun. look at the names i've given in the earlier post. google is a wonderful thing. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
47MartialMan Posted August 29, 2004 Posted August 29, 2004 Surely there is a name to these historical records and/or where they are located (archive-museum). Not that I need to see them and definately cannot read them. But a reference point. So you are saying type in the names of pan nam wing chun, yuen kay shan wing chun and hung fa yi wing chun. Do you have ANY specific links?
Drunken Monkey Posted August 29, 2004 Posted August 29, 2004 i don't keep tabs on web pages. i don't expect people to just read what i give them so i prefer to let them find their own 'truths'. after all, i might point you to biased sites. best if you do your own searching. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
47MartialMan Posted August 29, 2004 Posted August 29, 2004 Now you see one reason why I question you.
pvwingchun Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 47MartialMan obviously you didn't understand the point to this history. It clearly states that up until Leung Jan there is no historical evidence to the players in WC history. If you want a really good read Rene Ritchie wrote a book several years ago that separates fact from fiction and goes into the differing lineages and their histories. I will tell you this the traditional story and its timeline are highly speculative at best and at the worst totally wrong. Either some of these folks were very old or very young you can figure that one out. But it is what we have and it is an interesting tale. This is what we know "What we do know is in 1644 the Manchurians took over and an end came to the Ming Dynasty. Revolutionary societies sprang up after the fall of the Ming government early in the Qing Dynasty. The Shaolin Temple became a place where revolutionary activities took place and people loyal to the Ming family took refuge." Between this and Leung Jan it is all speculation, myth and legend and even this much above is open to interpretation. But it makes for a good story. As for Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) even his place in WC history is highly speculative. There are so many theories that you could spend a lifetime searching. It is highly likely that there were two phases of development one that gives us the close quarters combat with the cutting angle footwork (Red Junk period?) and one that gives us a wider more open stance used with the pole and knives. While the pole probably comes from the boats the footwork shown would not necessarily work and was probably pre Junk adapted to the boats. But that is all speculation and to my knowledge no one has anything definitive pre mid to late 1800's. For that matter even some of the Ip Man history may be hidden who is to say he was telling the truth about what he knew of the history of WC.......... IMO I do know that there is a man by the name of Hendrick Santo? who has a very good grasp on WC history and because of the fact he has access to documents no one has he has a rather unique view of WC history. I have read and saved more histories than I can shake a stick at. It is one of the lures of WC for me. I have read everything form the downright stupid to ones that make absolute perfect sense. The truth is we don't know and will probably never know the truth. The problem is there are so many folks out there that claim to have the truth yet there version is really no different than anyone elses except for a minor detail or two. Wing Chun Kuen Alliancehttps://www.wing-chun.us
47MartialMan Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Thank you pvwingchun, Especially: "The truth is we don't know and will probably never know the truth." I am not trying to dispute anything. I merely enjoy reading a collection of opinions and feedback. I may state something to stimulate a response. My statements could or could not be my actual positon on the subject. Because the martial arts have many controversial issues, many people have opposing views. I accept either view, which I call opnions. From your research collection, could you please name your favorite sources, books or sites?
pvwingchun Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 I have no idea where I have gotten most of my histories. Many are emailed to me, I pick them up from various places on the web most I don't remember. And unfortunately many were lost ina computer crash about 6 months ago. Although Rene Ritchie wrote a good book a few years ago and maintains a website, https://www.wingchunkuen.com. The Ving Tsun Musuem site aside from recently promoting the Hung Fa Yi version has one or two very interesting versions on their site.....The Kung Fu Online Forum is another good place to lurk around in to pick up a good story from time to time...... Always remember that history in WC is probably lost forever and when someone tells you they have the true story they are more than likely trying to sell their lineageand their version of things. Wing Chun Kuen Alliancehttps://www.wing-chun.us
47MartialMan Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 i don't keep tabs on web pages. i don't expect people to just read what i give them so i prefer to let them find their own 'truths'. after all, i might point you to biased sites. best if you do your own searching. Interesting, yet you give answers, commentary, and opinions so readily. Martial arts is like the bible or other religion, everyone has their own interpretations and opnions. Furthermore, records and details are lacking.
47MartialMan Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 I have no idea where I have gotten most of my histories. Many are emailed to me, I pick them up from various places on the web most I don't remember. And unfortunately many were lost ina computer crash about 6 months ago. Although Rene Ritchie wrote a good book a few years ago and maintains a website, https://www.wingchunkuen.com. The Ving Tsun Musuem site aside from recently promoting the Hung Fa Yi version has one or two very interesting versions on their site.....The Kung Fu Online Forum is another good place to lurk around in to pick up a good story from time to time...... Always remember that history in WC is probably lost forever and when someone tells you they have the true story they are more than likely trying to sell their lineageand their version of things. Sorry to hear about the lost of info. I have many friends in Ohio and I plan to vist the museum. I hear it is well documented and authenticated (per lineage and artifacts). Have you visited it?
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