Who influenced who, for whoever cares

[Nilla Ice]

And as far as KSW all I have said is people have told me it's a blend of HKD and Mantis style. Mantis is a Chinese style.

 

This is probably the most accurate statement you have made IN LAYMEN terms. Which goes to show which country had the biggest influence on Korea and still does. The Koreans developed fighting styles/techniques solely for the purpose of defence mostly against the Chinese invaders and each warring kingdom in Korea. Ever heard of the Hwarang warriors?

 

Yes, Kuk Sool uses a "praying mantis" block, but it by no means a "mantis" style. We also use a tiger palm, aka palm strike, a spear hand, aka crane technique, a Dragon stance, aka dragon style, so what's the point? Does that mean Kuk Sool is now a Chinese derivative? No, it means Kuk Sa Nym put together techiques practiced by Koreans for centuries or for a short period of time.

 

Kuk Sool is traditional in the fact we do things traditionally, ie, standard uniform, protocal, heirarchy, etc that are all found in any traditional martial art.

[Nilla Ice]

Put up or shut up.

 

You have only answer with "Suh said..."

 

Well my mom said the tooth ferry was real too.

 

All I have asked for is some other source, and you continue to dodge the question. You have provided nothing more than "Suh said".

 

Nilla Ice, I think you need to look into reading comprehension classes too.

 

http://www.esylvan.com/BB/BBFundRead.aspx

 

And TKD is a direct offshoot from shotokan and is no older than the 1950's despite what illusions you wish to use.

 

It has nothing to do with his art. I just asked for some outside sources. If you can provide some that would be great, but I am guessing you cannot.

 

Obviously, you didn't read "But, TKD was around before Japanese oocupation and saying TKD is like saying 'martial Arts/kick boxing' in english or 'karate' in Japanese." IOW, it's a generic term for karate martial arts, kickboxing, kung fu.

 

I never responded with "suh said" for the simple fact I have respect and show respect for Kuk Sa Nym. All I have to do is keep practicing Kuk Sool and see what "other styles" do to know that Kuk Sool has YET to look like ANY OTHER Japanese style.

 

How about this, you PROVE to me that Kuk Sool is Japanese. That short occupation period couldn't have erased everything Korean. You do know that the Japanese occupied China as the same time? Are you now going to say that all Chinese Martial arts derived from Japan? LMFAO!

 

*IF* anything, China would have a bigger influence on Kuk Sool or any Korean Martial Art than Japan would for the simpl fact of geographical location in respect to all three countries involved in this discussion. China is backing communist North Korea presently and has been since the 1950s.

 

This is going in circles for the simple fact you won't show me another Japanese martial art that's semi-identical to Kuk Sool.

Edited July 30, 2004 by Nilla Ice

[DLopez]

Well my mom said the tooth ferry was real too.

 

 

I take it you figured it out when you were able to observe for yourself that there is no tooth fairy, and didn't just start doubting the tooth fairy just because you read it on a website?

 

Why you don't take the same approach and verify for yourself what KSW is, escapes me.

 

You know, I did a quick google and here's another 3rd party link, you probably have already visited, but must have missed this one...

 

In Hyuk Suh

Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh has studied martial arts for more than 50 years, receiving his first instruction from his grandfather, Myung Duk Suh, master-instructor to the Korean Royal Court Army. After his grandfather's death, he studied additional aspects of traditional Korean martial arts. The extensive knowledge he acquired from his grandfather and later masters enabled him to establish Kuk Sool Won and the World Kuk Sool Association. As of October, 1998, his organization has grown to include more than 400 Kuk Sool Won schools worldwide with over one million members. Although an expert in every aspect of martial arts, Grandmaster Suh is especially renowned for his mastery of pressure point and joint manipulation techniques

 

So I gave you a 3rd party source (at long last I guess), so will you choose to believe it or will you come up with some new lame reason to disbelieve? (I already know the answer.)

 

Edit: more info!!

 

Hey, I found this at that same website:

 

Titled, "History of Korean Martial Arts, by In Sun Seo."

During the 36 years of the Japanese occupation of Korea, practically the life span of a whole generation lost its freedom and identity. The Japanese authorities tried to completely eliminate Korean thought, Korean cultural arts, and the very foundation of Korean traditional martial arts, which had been preserved in Korea for thousands of years. Ironically, it was the Japanese who had, in the past, brought Korean traditional martial arts into their own nation and then modified those arts to suit the Japanese culture. Then in this century, the Japanese tried to assert that Korean martial arts originated in Japan. In fact, today's Karate, Kendo, and Aikido were probably influenced by the traditional Korean martial art tradition.

 

The classification of different types of martial arts as various kinds of "Do" is a Japanese way of thinking. In Korea, on the other hand, the martial arts have been recognized traditionally as being either "Ki" ("skill"), "Sool"("art, method"), or "Kiyae" ("mechanical art"). That is to say, Koreans looked upon martial arts as either a means of fighting or as method of developing the mind and body.

 

Examination of the ancient Korean historical records reveal that such terms as "moo-do", "koong-do", or "gum-do" were not so much as once used. It was only after the middle of the Japanese colonial rule in Korea that the term "do" first appeared in Korean records. In Korea, "mu-yae" or "moo-sool" were traditionally used instead of "moo-do". In the same way, "koong-sa" (bow shooting), or "koong-sool" (bow technique) were used by Koreans instead of "koong-do". In addition, "yoo-sool" was used in Korea, not "yoo-do".

 

After the Korean liberation from Japan (August 15, 1945), Korean martial arts (i.e. "moo-yae" or "moo-sool") spread rapidly throughout the country. Classical Korean martial art techniques, which had been hidden, one by one surfaced and became publicly known. The reason for this rapid public disclosure of secret arts stems from the rivalry that developed between each proponent of some individual martial art form. That is, individual masters of their own particular martial art techniques tried to show theirs to be the "superior" Korean martial art.

 

Essentially, this disputes what Akima says about martial arts going from Japan to Korea, and that it was basically the other way around!

 

I can't wait to hear Akima's reaction to that!

 

Anyhow, more corroboration that the traditional Korean martial arts were taught after the Japanese occupation, and that In Hyuk Suh is not the only one as Akima believes.

 

Hey Akima, what have you dug up to prove that KSW is a fraud? Anything yet?

Edited July 30, 2004 by DLopez

[Nilla Ice]

Points that I am not arguing...

 

1) Japan influenced Korea

 

2) China Influenced Korea

 

3) Some "Korean Styles" really are Japanese with just a korean name. TSD literally can be read as Karate-do. The Characters of both languages are used, but only pronounced different. English, Spanish, French, German all use some of the same alphabet. Right?

 

Point I am debating. Just because TKD may or may not be "Japanese" in it's application as we see it in the USA today, that does not translate that Kuk Sool is also Japanese. It simply means TKD may or may not be truly of Japanese roots. Fajita is a mexican food, right? Pizza is Italian, right? Well, I've heard they were both "invented" here in the US. May or may not be true, but it shows what I am debating. The atomic bomb was designed by Jews, does that make it a product of Israel? Nope, the USA.

[DLopez]

Bump TTT.

 

So far, the tiny bit of evidence I've provided suggests that:

 

1) Traditional Korean martial arts indeed were taught after WWII.

 

2) Kuk Sa Nim (In Hyuk Suh) was not the only one teaching traditional Korean martial arts after WWII.

 

3) Evidence shows that the flow of influence in martial arts flowed from Korea to Japan, not from Japan to Korea.

 

Looks like quite a different picture of Korean Martial Arts is emerging than the one painted by Akima.

[Akima]

Claiming that Koreans influnced Karate, aikido or kendo is just a flat out lie and really shows the mentality of the people I am arguing with.

 

First, the occupcation was longer than 36 years. Offical annexation may have been about 36 years.

 

"That is, individual masters of their own particular martial art techniques tried to show theirs to be the "superior" Korean martial art."

 

This is total *.

 

You go ahead and believe the garbage you think you know. At least I can rest easy knowing what I know, or at least in the comforat that I don't believe everything that is told to me.

[DLopez]

 

I knew it!! I called it!!

 

I just knew that you're so closed minded, you would never believe any proof handed to you, and I was right. You asked for a 3rd party source corroborating what I've been saying, and when it's given to you, you call it * out of hand!

 

I had you pegged from the beginning.

 

I guess some people react that way when their little closed-minded world gets shook like that.

At least I can rest easy knowing what I know, or at least in the comforat that I don't believe everything that is told to me.

 

Whatever. You are believing everything told to you. Someone told you that all Korean martial arts descended directly from Japan, and for some ignorant reason, you believed it without any proof other than it must have sounded good at the time.

 

Now, you believe every wrong opinion of Kuk Sool Won told to you.

 

Sheesh, next you'll tell us that you were "there" to witness the effects of the Japanese occupation of Korea.

 

Go ahead, prove me right again.

[rmclain]

There are still Koreans alive in the martial arts community today that lived through the occupation.

 

Perhaps you should do a little digging to find out what they know.

 

R. McLain

[DLopez]

Good advice, rmclain.

 

That's what I'm basing my opinions on, the testimonials from those Koreans that actually lived through some of it at least.

 

[Akima]

I am not retacting a single thing.

 

What you posted was a flat out lie. This destroys any crediblity to rest of your arugument.

 

I am not going to waste my time arguing with you any longer.

 

Korean MA is derived from Japanese styles. Is a fact!!!!!!! What you posted is obvious Korean Propaganda.

 

Both Choi's, and Kee learned MA in Japan and began teaching after the occupation. These are all facts!

 

http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html

 

http://www.mooto.com/eng/webzine/news_view.asp?news_no=776

 

As far as KSW goes, You still have only provided evidence other than Suh's own claim's of this, that and the other thing.

 

Given your attitude and the fact that you now resorting to lies says a lot about you.