Who influenced who, for whoever cares

[Akima]

I am growing very sick of your attitude. I have asked some very legitimate questions and you have done nothing to answer them.

 

You claim my argument is a contradiction. Did I not admit that the other sources that claim KSW is not Korean could not be corroborated? I was giving you the benefit to respond to their claims.

 

I have asked repeatedly for a reference other than GM Suh himself that can support his claim that he studied secret Korean MA with Monks.

 

You obviously can provide NONE!

 

As for the gentleman who was not able to study other MA, I suspected it was the policy of HIS school. Not KSW.

 

 

I just think it's hilarious that folks that don't even know what the old traditional Korean martial arts were, are the ones now saying what is and isn't traditional Korean, and you're swallowing it up like a bass swallows up a big juicy worm!

 

Ok and you're just going to accept what ever is told to you.

 

Why can I not find any source other than SUH to support his claims?

 

Why is it after the war, Suh is the only person who went to learn all these secret arts?

 

He is the only person making such claims.

 

And you cannot provide any other evidence. Seriously, don't bother answering this unless you can provide some sort of reference to support SUH's claims.

 

I have been researching this for 4 days now, and every source cites Suh's claims and nothing else.

[DLopez]

I am growing very sick of your attitude. I have asked some very legitimate questions and you have done nothing to answer them.

 

How about your attitude? Calling something is a fraud until it is proven to your liking? Who the heck are you and who made you judge to determine what is and is not a traditional Korean style? As if you would even know anyhow?

 

(I've been trying to get this point across the entire time, but you're too obtuse to get the hint, so I guess I just have to come out and say it.)

I have asked repeatedly for a reference other than GM Suh himself that can support his claim that he studied secret Korean MA with Monks.

 

You obviously can provide NONE!

 

...

 

Why can I not find any source other than SUH to support his claims?

 

Why is it after the war, Suh is the only person who went to learn all these secret arts?

 

He is the only person making such claims.

 

No, you're wrong.

 

In Hyuk Suh is not the only person making such claims. The folks that have ripped off his techniques to teach them under different names seem to "believe".

 

The Korean Government, despite your ignorance to the fact, believes what he is teaching, else they wouldn't have honored In Hyuk Suh and his system by making it a governing body of martial arts. You seem to think that that simply means "having a headquarters in Korea". To that I can only suggest, get a clue.

 

Are you suggesting that the Korean government is behind this sham of making up a new style too? Basically, that's what you're saying.

 

Look. You claim to have done research, but you keep saying things that makes me think you're simply asking your buddies' opinions or some sap down the street what he thinks of KSW, whether they even know anything about it or not! Your sources are a sham.

 

In Hyuk Suh's got an entire Korean government backing him up. What do you got? Hearsay and opinions, that's all.

And you cannot provide any other evidence. Seriously, don't bother answering this unless you can provide some sort of reference to support SUH's claims.

 

I have been researching this for 4 days now, and every source cites Suh's claims and nothing else.

 

Heh! There is a better way for you to decide for yourself whether KSW is really a Japanese derivative... go take some lessons for a month or so, and see for yourself if it is a Japanese rip-off.

 

No wait, you said Chinese rip-off... Oh ya, now I remember, you said Japanese rip-off first, then changed it to Chinese! I'm not sure what you think it is now, other than you're absolutely positive it is not Korean!

 

Really, I don't care if you believe or not, all I've been trying to do is just point out to you how ridiculous your claims that KSW is not a traditional Korean style are, based on all the **cough cough** "research" you've undertaken.

 

You just don't get it though.

[Akima]

You still have provided no evidence.

 

The Korean Government also claims that TKD is totally Korean, and we all know it is not.

Are you suggesting that the Korean government is behind this sham of making up a new style too? Basically, that's what you're saying.

That is exactly what they did with TKD

 

I never called you a fruad, but I am beginning to suspect you are.

 

I never said that KSW was japanese. I did say that people I have spoken to who have studied claim it HKD combined with Chinese Mantis style.

In Hyuk Suh is not the only person making such claims. The folks that have ripped off his techniques to teach them under different names seem to "believe"

Seem to belive his claims!!!! Exactly No one else can say for sure. The only thing that is proven is he studied HKD.

 

I keep asking for other evidence. I research information, confront you with what I found, and never once have you answered anything I presented to you. The burden of the argument is on you. I have seriously done research in this and have found nothing to back up your claims.

 

You obviously do not know much more about KSW than I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have been open minded to your cliams, Why don't you try to be open minded to possiblty that you could be wrong?

 

Because there is no eveidence one way or the other in this argument, and that is all I have said all along.

[DLopez]

You still have provided no evidence.

 

The Korean Government also claims that TKD is totally Korean, and we all know it is not.

Are you suggesting that the Korean government is behind this sham of making up a new style too? Basically, that's what you're saying.

That is exactly what they did with TKD

 

TKD is irrelevent to whether KSW is traditional Korean or not.

 

Anyhow, now your position is clear. If you truly believe the Korean government is trying to pull a fast one, then clearly, no matter who tells you anything more about KSW, you're never going to believe it. You've made up your mind already, despite your claims that you're keeping an open mind... but I knew that from the very beginning.

I never called you a fruad, but I am beginning to suspect you are.

 

I never said that KSW was japanese. I did say that people I have spoken to who have studied claim it HKD combined with Chinese Mantis style.

 

I never said you called me a fraud. You are calling KSW a fraud, without any proof to back it up. Just slanted opinions based on hearsay.

 

 

In Hyuk Suh is not the only person making such claims. The folks that have ripped off his techniques to teach them under different names seem to "believe"

Seem to belive his claims!!!! Exactly No one else can say for sure. The only thing that is proven is he studied HKD.

 

No one can say for sure??? By your own admission, yet here you are adamant that KSW is not what In Hyuk Suh claims it is, as if you know! Sometimes I just can't believe what I read on the internet sometimes!

 

As far as In Hyuk Suh studying Hapkido, that's an interesting spin. But it's just that, spin.

 

Most contemporary Korean martial arts are based on the ancient traditional Korean styles to some extent. Hapkido is no different in that regard. So if In Hyuk Suh studies the same roots that Hapkido draws from, you're going to paint it as In Hyuk Suh having studied Hapkido. Okay...

 

Spin spin spin.

I keep asking for other evidence. I research information, confront you with what I found, and never once have you answered anything I presented to you. The burden of the argument is on you. I have seriously done research in this and have found nothing to back up your claims.

 

Hah! There's no burden on me, because you've made it clear you will not be convinced, ever.

 

Plus, I couldn't give a rat's patooty if you believe KSW is traditional Korean or not, as KSW's rate of popularity and growth will continue despite those like you that choose to denigrate it out of sheer ignorance.

 

What you call research is laughable at best. What you are looking for is out there, but it isn't going to be on some website. Still, once you find it, assuming you're really looking for it, I'm sure you'll refuse to believe even then as well.

You obviously do not know much more about KSW than I do!

 

Whatever. I've told you what I've learned, you've just decided to refuse to believe it, without having any real reason to disbelieve. You've at least admitted that much yourself. ("No one else can say for sure." Direct quote from you.)

[Akima]

TKD is irrelevent to whether KSW is traditional Korean or not.

 

Anyhow, now your position is clear. If you truly believe the Korean government is trying to pull a fast one, then clearly, no matter who tells you anything more about KSW, you're never going to believe it. You've made up your mind already, despite your claims that you're keeping an open mind... but I knew that from the very beginning.

 

I was simply refuting your claim that Korean government only supports true facts.

 

 

I never said you called me a fraud. You are calling KSW a fraud, without any proof to back it up. Just slanted opinions based on hearsay.

 

And you're claiming KSW is not fruad with no proof to back it up. I have base no opinions on hearsay. I have asked you refute the "hearsay" I have found, and you obviously cannot.

Most contemporary Korean martial arts are based on the ancient traditional Korean styles to some extent.

 

That is spin! Now, you could say "Most contemporary Korean martial arts HAVE NAMES based on the ancient traditional Korean styles to some extent."

 

HKD is directly decendant from Aikijujitsu. Suh studied under Grandmaster Yong-Sool Choi . That is the only verifyable fact I can find on Suh's training.

 

Now before you start misunderstanding this statement, I am not saying that Suh did not study other arts. I am saying that there is no proof that he study secret Korean MA like he cliams.

Quote:

 

I keep asking for other evidence. I research information, confront you with what I found, and never once have you answered anything I presented to you. The burden of the argument is on you. I have seriously done research in this and have found nothing to back up your claims.

 

 

 

Hah! There's no burden on me, because you've made it clear you will not be convinced, ever.

 

Once again, I have asked you to refute what I have find, and I have asked for support evidence of your position. You cannot do either.

What you call research is laughable at best. What you are looking for is out there, but it isn't going to be on some website. Still, once you find it, assuming you're really looking for it, I'm sure you'll refuse to believe even then as well.

 

Like I said before, TELL ME WHERE TO FIND IT IF YOU'RE SO SMART. YOU HAVE DODGED EVERY SINGLE QUESTION I HAVE ASKED.

 

In closing, only a fool accepts unsupport claims he is told as fact without at least looking for other evidence, or questioning the validity of those claims. I have a bridge here in Brooklyn I can sell you too.

 

Your ablilty to present an argument is laughable at best.

 

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DLopez]

HKD is directly decendant from Aikijujitsu. Suh studied under Grandmaster Yong-Sool Choi . That is the only verifyable fact I can find on Suh's training.

 

Now before you start misunderstanding this statement, I am not saying that Suh did not study other arts. I am saying that there is no proof that he study secret Korean MA like he cliams.

 

Nice try.

 

I've seen the website you must have visited to get this one sliver of hope to support your argument.

 

The simple fact is, In Hyuk Suh does not acknowledge any teachings from Choi as having gone into Kuk Sool Won. What does that tell you? If it wasn't traditional Korean, then it wasn't going into KSW. In Hyuk Suh studied under many masters, and basically chose to assimilate only the traditional Korean techniques for KSW. Why is that so hard for you to believe?

 

Regardless, let's entertain the notion that Suh studied Hapkido (not the ancient Korean styles upon which it is based). The only way you can say that that makes Suh's claims of being traditional Korean as false, is if Suh included those techniques that were not traditional Korean, but were Japanese, or, if Hapkido was just a re-labled Japanese style, which it is not.

 

You see, it all goes back to the ancient Korean roots that the contemporary Korean styles draw from.

 

Once again, Suh is not claiming to have invented a new style. He has simply put together a system based on the indigenous, ancient traditional Korean martial arts. Those same roots can be found, to varying extents, in TKD, Hapkido, or any other Korean martial arts style. So even if KSW and Hapkido share some similarities, that is to be expected!

 

Your little world of over-simplified generalizations probably has a hard time handling that, huh?

 

You also contend that all Korean martial arts are directly descended from Japanese styles.

 

Early on, you said this:

Karate was then introduced to the Koreans and transformed there.

 

If you would bother to compare KSW to Karate or even TKD, you would clearly see the difference in styles. Even a novice could tell the difference. You obviously have not bothered to compare practical styles. If KSW is directly descended from Karate, shouldn't it at least look similar, despite what name you want to call each technique? How do you explain the differences? (Oh I forget, you never bothered to observe KSW, so you have no real frame of reference. My bad.)

 

Another thing... Why do you keep making up imaginary points for your argument?

 

You keep calling what Suh learned as "secret" techniques. They're not secret techniques, they are the same techniques that most Korean styles are based on to some extent. The only thing secret about them was how they were taught during the Japanese occupation - in secret. An entirely different meaning. However, I can understand how they would seem secret to someone like you that had no idea they existed before.

 

Finally, you will never find the "proof" you are looking for (even if you did, you would find some reason to disbelieve it), so be content in your ignorant conclusion that because I choose not to doubt the research undertaken by others (I have found no reason to doubt it), that KSW is a fraud, and that all Korean martial arts are really Japanese. You will sleep better at night, I'm sure.

 

But in reality, you have proven nothing but your own deliberate ignorace, and KSW will continue to grow in popularity whether or not you believe it is a traditional Korean martial art.

 

Like I said, you aren't the first one to doubt KSW, and you won't be the last.

 

If I am a fool for believing what I do "without proof", well then, I say welcome to the club!

[Akima]

You still have failed to do the one thing I ask.

 

PUT UP OR SHUT UP

 

How hard is it that to do.

 

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about because if you did you would actually have provided answers to any of my questions. So far all you have done and change the subject or go on a tangent. Answer the dang questions!!!!

 

Suh himself claims to have studied with Choi! I am shocked that such an expert of KSW would not know this.

 

If you would please bother to read, you would see that I never said all Korean styles derive from Japanese. And as far as KSW all I have said is people have told me it's a blend of HKD and Mantis style. Mantis is a Chinese style.

 

Perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course?

 

http://www.esylvan.com/BB/BBFundRead.aspx

 

 

You keep calling what Suh learned as "secret" techniques. They're not secret techniques; they are the same techniques that most Korean styles are based on to some extent. The only thing secret about them was how they were taught during the Japanese occupation - in secret. An entirely different meaning. However, I can understand how they would seem secret to someone like you that had no idea they existed before.

 

Then why is Suh the only person to have trained, why can no one else support his claims?

 

O wait I asked that question and YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!

 

All I have asked for is some supporting evidence. All I have asked is some answers from you. Perhaps my only error was in thinking you actually had some intelligence. I am starting to doubt if you even do KSW or any martial art because I have never converst with someone who down right refused to answer questions about their own style.

 

You call critical skepticism Ignorance. Perhaps because my skepticism has revealed your own ignorance.

 

There is really no point in continuing this. Like I said before.

 

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

[Nilla Ice]

*IF* Kuk Sool is truly rooted in Japanese martial arts, then which Japanese martial employs OUR forms, OUR Joint Locking techiques, OUR falling techniques, OUR pressure point striking, OUR kick, punching, OUR stances, OUR meditiational techniques, and OUR weapons all wrapped in a hard soft combination?

 

Yes, the Japanese did have an influence on EVERYTHING in Korea, but that in and of itself is NOT enough evidence to say ALL Korean Martial Arts Systems originated in Japan or are truly Japanese. Why does TKD look so much like Japanese styles? Because that was all anyone could ever hope to see or learn in that period on a mass basis. They could watch the Japanese military workout and take that home with them at night and train in secret. That's why TKD looks so much like "karate". But, TKD was around before Japanese oocupation and saying TKD is like saying "martial Arts/kick boxing" in english or "karate" in Japanese.

 

Again, which Japanese martial art is like Kuk Sool? Trust me, KSW is successful enough - the WORLD'S LARGEST PRIVATE MARTIAL ART - that if it was "Japanese" for sure those vertically challenged business geniuses in Tokyo would figure out how to make billions, like they've done with the microwave, tv, car, computer, camcorder, etc. You get my point.

 

As I read the thread, I figured out one thing, you just can't stand the fact that some people might be happy with their choice of martial arts even if that choice is different that yours.

 

LOL...The Kuk Sool Cult... I LIKE THAT! What a wonderful cult to be in!

Edited July 30, 2004 by Nilla Ice

[DLopez]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP

 

How hard is it that to do.

 

Put up what? What else do you want besides what I've already provided (way back at the beginning of this thread)?

 

Should I go borrow the letters of introduction from Suh's grandfather that basically opened his doors of study, and let you read them? Should I get GM Suh to personally visit you and answer all of your questions, face to face?

 

How about this?

 

Instead of just going by what you read on the internet, how about you actually visit a KSW school, and identify what is and isn't Japanese.

 

Should be quite an easy assignment for someone like you that obviously knows what is and isn't Korean.

Then why is Suh the only person to have trained, why can no one else support his claims?

 

What are you talking about? Show me where it's being purported that what Suh claims about KSW isn't true?

 

As far as I can see, the only ones doing that are you and your **cough** "sources".

 

Your "critical skepticism" is merely just a juvenile attempt to make youself appear knowledgeable, like some sort of educated consumer or something.

 

If you cannot prove that KSW is a fraud, then don't declare it as one. You are entitled to your opinion if you choose to doubt KSW's claims, but it is downright idiotic for you to continue your KSW bashing based on your ignorance.

 

Give it up already.

If you would please bother to read, you would see that I never said all Korean styles derive from Japanese. And as far as KSW all I have said is people have told me it's a blend of HKD and Mantis style. Mantis is a Chinese style.

 

Perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course?

Most researched information indicates that unarmed MA in Korea dies out as weapons

 

became the fashion. This coupled with the occupation pretty much killed korean unarmed MA.

 

Korean MA today is directly decended from Akijujitsu and Karatedo (which was stolen from okinawa).

 

Did you or did you not post this as your very first post? Ya, I thought so.

 

Quit backpeddling. You said what you said. I don't think I'll take up your offer for that reading comprehension site, since it obviously doesn't work, either that or you never looked into it yourself the same as you never looked into KSW yourself.

[Akima]

Put up or shut up.

 

You have only answer with "Suh said..."

 

Well my mom said the tooth ferry was real too.

 

All I have asked for is some other source, and you continue to dodge the question. You have provided nothing more than "Suh said".

 

Nilla Ice, I think you need to look into reading comprehension classes too.

 

http://www.esylvan.com/BB/BBFundRead.aspx

 

And TKD is a direct offshoot from shotokan and is no older than the 1950's despite what illusions you wish to use.

 

It has nothing to do with his art. I just asked for some outside sources. If you can provide some that would be great, but I am guessing you cannot.