Attending 2nd ShorinRyu class, very strange things happening

[goedikey]

So I just got back from my 2nd Shorin Ryu class.

 

I used to be in Shotokan and was green belt but put on my white belt for this class.

 

The decision to switch came from the fact that I lacked some basics relating free unprotected sparring that my Shotokan teacher couldnt provide directl.

 

This new Shorin class had protected free sparring with friendly looking people. Here I could learn my distances and get acquainted with kicks wihout fear and maybe go back to my Shoto class in a few months.

 

So the class is done by Sensei himself and is introducing interesting concepts that seem pretty deadly that were practiced 2 by 2.

 

He is a japanese man probably in his 60's and seems to know quite a bit.

 

But there is so many things missing like the Kiais, kime, zanchin, and most of all the katas.

 

There was some Kata being done but at slow pace.

 

In my shotokan class, the Katas were rigidly practiced.

 

It litteraly brought up awareness, cardio workout, Ki development etc. and lighning speed.

 

Now, the Shorin guys are saying that I shouldnt wear myself too much.

 

To me this is unacceptable.

 

What is that ?

 

My feelings are that sensei is either getting tired or doesnt want to scare the hell of of his students. The black belts arent impressive at all.

 

Yet, I feel that this Japanese man has so much knowledge and so much experience that he must have something valuable to give.. Just by looking at him go about, you know hes a real deal...

 

So what goes ? Is this the way ancient Okinawans would like me to learn ?

 

Thanks

[Kazuya]

My feelings are that sensei is either getting tired or doesnt want to scare the hell of of his students. The black belts arent impressive at all.

 

Of course it looks like crap but that's the way it was designed originally. You are used to watching shotokan black belts who spend their lives training how to look good in their katas. Shotokan may be the art with the most refined katas but it doesn't mean shorin ryu is bad. In fact shorin ryu was what Funakoshi practiced before he and his son made the changes to convert it to shotokan. You are studying the original art. Look at early books of Funakoshi and you will se his kiba dachi in tekki shodan is really high and looks like a shotokan's white belt kiba dachi but this is the way it was practiced. That's why you don't look impresed at the black belts. Don't judge them since a shotokan POV.

 

 

But there is so many things missing like the Kiais, kime, zanchin, and most of all the katas.

Yes and every one of them has a reason. And you may see that it has something that shotokan lacks and that may be the new concepts your instructor is introducing and i guess you are refering to bunkai and kata aplication in general, where a a gedan barai is a punch or a lock.

 

First, kime: It was not introduced to the shotokan world until nakayama endorsed this way as head of the JKA. There was people who disagreed with him as Sigeru Egami and decided to keep the old way (the shorin ryu way) and founded the shotokai. Lately i have been knowing a lot of shotokan folks who agree with me in the fact that there is no such thing as kime. There are articles floating in the net btw. Kime is only used to make you keep proper form when doing a punch and not follow trought it. If you do this to somebody the damage would be less than the one without kime (when you let your punch go through your opponent without stopping it. To do it properly you need to punch in a relaxed way as the guys in shorin ryu). Try it with a makiwara: punch it with kime and it will return the applied force to you without hurting. Now punch it in a relaxed way letting it go through and you will see that the amount of force that the makiwara returns is more than before and it hurts.

 

About the kiai: nobody has really proven it actually makes your punch stronger. One thing that it surely does is to use more muscles thus your kime looks better but if you follow the reasoning above....

 

Katas: you change style and are hoping they have the same katas? And with the same style? That's why its a different style. In fact the original katas in shotokan were only 15 and the rest were added from othetr styles as goju and shito ryu and "shotokanized".

There was some Kata being done but at slow pace.

 

In my shotokan class, the Katas were rigidly practiced.

 

It litteraly brought up awareness, cardio workout, Ki development etc. and lighning speed.

 

Now, the Shorin guys are saying that I shouldnt wear myself too much.

 

To me this is unacceptable.

 

What is that ?

Why is it unaceptable? Because it makes you think about your movements and the way your body works instead of making you sweat? If you want cardio workout and speed train for them. Katas are for fighting. You won't learn the typical shotokan way with them. You will learn locks, throws and similar things from the shorin ryu katas. It's not like shotokan where a gedan barai is a gedan barai and trust more in the strenght of the person.

 

That's the original timing and it's the only way to develope correct form and understanding. You may have not experimented it in your shotokan classes but even shotokan folks have to slow movements in kata in order to correct them, to do them in a different way as the same you are talking about. Shotokan is a hard style but it has been modified to tournaments. Look at goju and shito ryu, they have katas with slow pace as you mention.

 

Most shotokan folks use to rush through their katas. If that's what you are looking for that is not the original way.

 

One more thing: you should not wear yourself out as they have told you: imagine you fight for 20 minutes. If you are tired, sweating and huffing and puffing after 3 katas in a row, that's only 3 minutes and there are 17 left. One thing shotokan lacks is the fact that there are effective, relazed ways to hurt and evade opponents and that's what you are learning.

 

And when i said fighting i didn't mean sport's kumite where you bounce all tarpound the place but real fighting when timing and distance are completely different, saittuation in which you could never throw a single oi-zuki because your opponent is not at 3 metters away (typical shotokan kata application)

 

Ki development? Me rolls his eyes....

[goedikey]

Hey thanks for your reply !

 

I kinda knew what I was getting into and didnt expect the Katas to be the same either.

 

All I can tell is that my Shotokan classes gave me some inner strenght that I dont feel I can use in Shorin Ryu. I guess its different.

 

Doing the Katas in Shotokan has allowed me to do develop intense energy without getting burned out by using alternate muscle groups, hips, centrifugal motion, gravity etc... Not one single technique is left out and each performed at maximum strenght. Thats the way I was shown until now and seems like a very good approach for close range self defense.

 

I dont feel i can use this energy in the contaxt of my Shorin classes though...

 

Yet, the Sorin classes will teach me to attack and evade at a fairly early stage, which is really great !

 

I do not reret the decision because i know I can go back if I want.

Edited August 13, 2004 by goedikey

[goedikey]

Oh and another thing, I have on video the ancient katas (Pinan, empi, hagetsu, bassai sho sochin unsu kankusho kankudai...) performed by the old sensei themselfes.

 

Its black and white films taken from ancient Japan. you probably already seen some.

 

 

 

Well the Katas are not performed at a slow pace. but a very fast pace.

 

If you want to see , tell me will set up my web page.

 

Have a nice day !

[Shorin Ryuu]

Perhaps you feel that there is a lack of "inner strength" in the Shorin Ryu kata...I've find your phrasing interesting, as the inner strength you mention is described as a full range of body muscle usage...

 

Inner strength is present in Shorin Ryu kata, although there is much less reliance upon pure strength and more reliance on simple body mechanics. Simply put, there is less muscle and more technique, which allows the smaller guy to beat the bigger. When your teacher said for you to not wear yourself out, I don't think he meant that you were relying too much upon muscle strength rather than optimal body mechanics.

[G95champ]

In our Shotokan classes we usually do kata last so we can wear ourselves out lol.

 

There is a few ways to do kata. You can do them relaxed and just focus on techinqe then once you get that down add the speed and emotion. Your teacher may be doing that. Dont pass judgement to quickly.

 

The lack of good black belts is a scary thing. You can about always judge a teacher by his Dan ranks.

 

You said you wanted to do this style to learn distance and stuff. Did your Shotokan teacher not do one step and 3 step sparring?

[goedikey]

The lack of good black belts is a scary thing. You can about always judge a teacher by his Dan ranks.

 

He does have high Dan rank in Shorin Ryu (maybe 5th or 6th, I need to check).

You said you wanted to do this style to learn distance and stuff. Did your Shotokan teacher not do one step and 3 step sparring?

 

Yes but once I got to a free kumite using a more natural stance, I just couldnt get the techniques right. There is a big gap between one step and free sparring. Thats where te Shorin might come into play..natural fighting stances, jumping punches etc...none of which is learned in Shotokan (yet).

 

Take a look at my Shorin school :

 

http://mkcshorin.tripod.com/maine.htm

 

I am not saying its bad but its VERY different ! In a good way maybe, I hope to see...but i am confident I will not waste my time.

 

I simply want to make sure I am in a good place.

[shotochem]

Yes but once I got to a free kumite using a more natural stance, I just couldnt get the techniques right. There is a big gap between one step and free sparring. Thats where te Shorin might come into play..natural fighting stances, jumping punches etc...none of which is learned in Shotokan (yet).

 

I simply want to make sure I am in a good place.

 

It takes time to be good at sparring. At greenbelt level you are still just getting your feet wet. IMO, you really don't start to look or feel comfortable until about brownbelt level (2-3 yrs of training). It takes time, don't be discouraged. My advice is to work heavily on your basics. You can never get too much. It will only make you better. Work on your distance and timing it is crucial to free sparring and fighting. You can have the best technique in the world but without the proper distance and timing you can not hit your target or avoid being hit.

 

Whichever style you choose give it your all. I would not go back and forth between styles at your level as it could lead to more confusion.

 

Good Luck.

[Kazuya]

Oh and another thing, I have on video the ancient katas (Pinan, empi, hagetsu, bassai sho sochin unsu kankusho kankudai...) performed by the old sensei themselfes.

 

Its black and white films taken from ancient Japan. you probably already seen some.

 

 

 

Well the Katas are not performed at a slow pace. but a very fast pace.

 

If you want to see , tell me will set up my web page.

 

Have a nice day !

 

That's because those videos were filmed in 195x when the JKA was setup and the changes were already made. The original ones were changed as soon as Funakoshi started to to teach in Japan. Try to look at early pictures of Funakoshi doing kata in the net.

 

Inner strength sounds interesting. Are not you confusing it with long movements and total usage of muscles? Take a look at aikido, their practitioners have inner strengh but they don't use muscles the way shotokan guys do. It's a different approach. You won't use your shotokan muscles in shorin ryu because of the approach. You will learn to disable a man with the minimum effort possible, contrary to shotokan where all you can rely on is your strenght and how you apply it.

 

Of course shotokan will always feel stronger but that may not mean that this is the most effective art in the world. Hell i have seen more shotokan folks beaten than anything in this world... And i'm not biased, i'm shotokan too

 

The difference between sparring and basic kumite you experimented in your shotokan dojo is due to the fact that they are 2 different beasts: what you are learning right now is kata with selfdefense included (bunkai) That's what you are going to get in shorin ryu and that's what kata are for. This is what karate was all about. The sport sparring you are learning in shotokan is in no way related to kata as you may have seen. Simply as that: sports kumite as taught in most dojos today are not related in any way to kata and the gap you are feeling is perfectly natural. Take a dive in shorin ryu. Explore it's bunkai and when you return to shotokan try to apply it to shotokan katas and enjoy. Then you will see that sport kumite is a completely different thing but with the name karate in it and will still feel difficult: sports kumite is not about technique and who hits more harder, it's just what punch lands before. You can punch as fast as you can without force, touch the opponent and get a point. Sports kumite is for fast strong people hence the shotokan kata approach to build more muscles and speed, while the selfdefense you will learn there don't need that. Remember that Funakoshi wanted to convert karate in a physical eduation class and that was his approach all his life, this beng the motive of the lack of bunkai in his classes. A few years before people started sparring with what they knew and designed 1-3 steps kumite and that developed in today's sport kumite. That's why there is a gap between basics and kata and shotokan kumite.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Wow, we have some very knowledgable people on this forum...where'd you guys come from?

 

Anyway, I've had the opportunity to sit in and watch a few Shotokan classes recently in my small town and talk to the instructors. The instructors are very knowledgable and 100% in love with Shotokan (which is the way it should be if you're teaching it) and view it as the ultimate martial art. Again, like they should feel if they are teaching it. I'm the same way about Shorinryu.

 

The kata I've seen them do is similar to what I do in Shorinryu, but different. There is a definite Japanese influence to it. By that I mean more rigid, stiff, and emphasis on power 100% of the time. Shorinryu however stresses power during the movment of the punching/kicking technique, then relazation of your muscles afterwards. Basically, we go from 0% output of energy while not moving, to 100% output of energy during the actual technique, then back to 0% again. You can do kata and sparring for long periods that way because yo uaren't working your muscles at peak output all of the time. VERY useful if fighting opponents for a long time.

 

Shotokan, from my observations, likes to be tense while at rest and starts the generation of power much sooner, and hold it longer, than Shorinryu does. An analogy would perhaps be that Shotokan is liek a car engine. They sit at idle at the beginning of a kata, thgen rev their enginesthe entire time they do the kata until they finish and go back to idle. Shorinryu would be more like a drag race. Idle...then explosive 100% power..then immediately back to idle to conserve "gas" and save wear and tear on the "engine". That's rather simplistic, but fairly accurate.

 

Two things I noted looking at your Sensei's webpage were this. Why is he wearing a gi, with TKD black trim on his gi top? I haven't seen that before on any other Okinawan stylists, and only on TKD stylists. It's a new one on me. Secondly, I'm not sure exactly which branch of Shorinryu they are practicing, but certainly not the Matsumura Kenpo/Seito system that I do, as head kicks are NEVER done, but they displayed one on the webpage. It appears to me to be perhaps a bit "modernized" branch maybe? I'm really not very familiar with the other systems of Shorinryu. Can someone shed some light on those two points for me please?