Kuk Sool Won effective as a combat art?

[enigmatic_cat]

Just curious if it is, I don't know too much about it yet...

[Isshinryu88]

I studied KSW for four years. I left after earning my brown belt.

 

Short answer- It can be a good basis for further studies. Like any art, it really depends on the teacher as much as on the art. If you don't have any MA experience at all, try it and ask a lot of questions.

 

Long Answer......

 

To a great degree, KSW seemed to be focused on memorizing variations of joint locks. Most of the locks were effective, but rather than focusing on the underlying core of the locks, you just kept learning more and more.

 

At nearly all levels, the techniques pretty much require a cooperative partner to work. At the upper levels, the techniques can seem rather implausible.

 

KSW often seemed little more that TKD with joint locks. A little more focus on punching, but nearly everything was kicks, especially in the forms. While this isn't germane to your question, the forms always seemed rather "made up" to me. There was a focus on forms, but they seemed primarily meant for physical fitness. Very rarely did I get to a point in a form where I could see that the form was reinforcing a joint technique.

 

The school I studied at did a lot of grappling, but I think this was the instructor's interest, not an actual part of regular KSW curriculum. The grappling was good.

 

There was no effort at integrating the long range kicks, medium range punches, close range joint locks and the grappling. If you saw two KSW people sparring, it was like seeing any two people from a primarily kicking art going at it. I felt that there should be a point at where everything should begin to blend together and reinforce each other. That didn't happen.

 

My JKD instructor feels that the joint locks I learned are actually best utilized in a grappling situation where my opponent can't get away so easily. His opinion is that trying to put a lock on a standing person is very difficult since he can just yank his arm away to prevent a wrist lock.

 

If you have any more questions, let me know.

[DLopez]

I studied KSW for four years. I left after earning my brown belt. ... A little more focus on punching, but nearly everything was kicks, especially in the forms.

 

As a brown belt, you should know that every KSW form has far more hand strikes and blocks than kicks. To say differently makes me question if you're being genuine in relating your KSW experience.

 

You should also have realized at the brown belt level, just how impractical applying the techniques in sparring would be. They must be practiced under controlled conditions or else serious injury can result, and that's precisely why the techniques get their own dedicated practice time and are not a part of sparring.

 

 

To a great degree, KSW seemed to be focused on memorizing variations of joint locks. Most of the locks were effective, but rather than focusing on the underlying core of the locks, you just kept learning more and more.

 

Yes, the idea is to equip you to handle practically any situation. Some may find having to learn literally hundreds of techniques overhwhelming, and prefer to only have to learn a few general techniques, which may or may not be applicable in different situations. So far, I have learned only 114 techniques (up through Dee Eue Bohk Soo), and still feel the desire to learn yet even more.

 

Now, if you believe that you can think your way through a fight, relying on the "underlying core" principles to try and apply a joint lock, you will fail, and lose the fight. In a conflict, you must react quickly to a very fluid, dynamic situation, and the only way to react quickly enough is to practice the specific movements of the different techniques over and over and over. There's just no way around that.

At nearly all levels, the techniques pretty much require a cooperative partner to work. At the upper levels, the techniques can seem rather implausible.

 

That is probably true until you reach about red belt level. By then, you should be practiced enough to be able to effectively use them up through at least Joo Muhk Maga Ki Bohn Soo. If you didn't learn them well enough by red belt to apply them effectively, I'm sorry, but that is a reflection on you, not on KSW's techniques' effectiveness.

Very rarely did I get to a point in a form where I could see that the form was reinforcing a joint technique.

 

Why did you expect it to? The forms are a singular exercise, designed to develop balance, stamina, leg strength, and drill in the proper punching and kicking techniques and hand/footwork. The joint lock/throwing techniques require a partner to train with to know whether you are doing them correctly or not. How then could doing forms reinforce a joint technique?

There was no effort at integrating the long range kicks, medium range punches, close range joint locks and the grappling. If you saw two KSW people sparring, it was like seeing any two people from a primarily kicking art going at it. I felt that there should be a point at where everything should begin to blend together and reinforce each other. That didn't happen.

 

Sparring in KSW is an optional activity, and is not even required to advance in rank. Using the KSW techniques in sparring would be sadistic. As it is, they are practiced under control in their own alotted time slot, because as I'm sure you know, they are designed to generate much pain using the pressure points. Sparring in KSW is simply point sparing, nothing more. If you feel like you need to get beat up to feel like you are learning, then KSW is probably not for you, but to imply that KSW isn't teaching you how to be effective is far from accurate.

 

However, I understand where your question is coming from. The question of "How do you know you've learned the techniques?" is often brought up by beginning students. It is the constant practice and drilling that is ensuring that you will be able to apply the techniques on demand.

 

Like in anything else, if you doubt your abilities, then that doubt is probably justified.

 

I've heard of too many examples where a KSW student is placed in a "real life" situation and is able to react and apply a technique on demand to doubt KSW's effectiveness.

 

I've never heard anyone say KSW techniques are easy to learn, but they are definitely worth the effort it takes to learn them. It's all up to the student's dedication and commitment to learning that makes them proficient with them.

[Isshinryu88]

As a brown belt, you should know that every KSW form has far more hand strikes and blocks than kicks. To say differently makes me question if you're being genuine in relating your KSW experience.

 

I suppose it's my previous MA bias, but the repeated sections of spinning crescent kicks give me the impression that kicks take precedence over hand techniques.

 

You should also have realized at the brown belt level, just how impractical applying the techniques in sparring would be. They must be practiced under controlled conditions or else serious injury can result, and that's precisely why the techniques get their own dedicated practice time and are not a part of sparring.

 

At some point, everything should come together in one package. Brown belt is certainly too early for this to be anywhere near a completed process, but the ground work should be started prior to black belt. From observing my seniors, it was clear that this wasn't happening for them and I knew it wasn't occuring for me.

 

I agree that you can't go full speed with many of the techniques. With the white belt techniques beginning with the ready stance as the refernce point, moving up to the yellow belt wrist grabs and clothing, moving up the scale to the kick/punch refernce for the pressure point sets- it's obvious that the idea of getting everything integrated is there. The TKD style focus on kicks doesn't lend itself well to the entering skills needed to transition into the joint locks. Perhaps it was my instructor. Being in Houston, you are pretty much in KSW central.

 

Now, if you believe that you can think your way through a fight, relying on the "underlying core" principles to try and apply a joint lock, you will fail, and lose the fight. In a conflict, you must react quickly to a very fluid, dynamic situation, and the only way to react quickly enough is to practice the specific movements of the different techniques over and over and over. There's just no way around that.

 

I agree that you can't think your way through much of anything in a fight if you are hoping for success. But memorizing, what is it, 233 or some such number of techniques, and trying to maintain competency in all of them isn't conducive to that process. Look at the techniques. How many times is the straight arm bar repeated? There's probably only 6 or so seperate principles to the wrist locks. The side to side motion of the wrist, up and down of the wrist and the two twisting motions of the forearm.

 

If you didn't learn them well enough by red belt to apply them effectively, I'm sorry, but that is a reflection on you, not on KSW's techniques' effectiveness.

 

I said implausible, not ineffective. Do you actually believe that someone will grab both of your sleeves and pull your arms to the rear and then hold on to the sleeves while you begin to move into that sequence of techniques?

 

How then could doing forms reinforce a joint technique?

 

This would be my bias coming through again. Bunkai, applications, forms the basis of most of the Okinawan Karate arts. Practicing the forms reinforces the fundamental hand/foot techniques, but in a moving/sparring situation. I guess I don't see much call for forms if physical attributes is all they provide. You can get better results from a well thought out exercise routine.

 

but to imply that KSW isn't teaching you how to be effective is far from accurate.

 

I'm sure you've seen, or at least heard of, the video of the KSW master who was accosted in a parking lot. His response- a backfist to the temple. Simple, direct and very effective, but not a spinning crescent kick.

 

Many of the Korean Arts have a strong infatuation with kicking. Point Sparring, while not a sterling example of a "real" fight, does give insight into what an art focuses on. The forms also give that insight.

 

In my former school, roundhouse kicks were the rule rather than the exception. All of the time spent on joint techniques and there were never any exercises in starting in a point sparring situation and then moving into a joint technique, stopping before the technique locked in. A faster moving version of the second way of doing the very first set of techniques. I'm sorry that I can't remember any of the names. You did the set using the kick and punch as the refernce point, like with the pressure point sets.

 

If I hadn't moved away, I'd likely still be attending the school. I like KSW and if I move to where there is a school, I may very well resume. If anything, I envy you being so close to the home school.

[DLopez]

I think I understand your concerns better!

 

I only have one comment on your last post...

I said implausible, not ineffective. Do you actually believe that someone will grab both of your sleeves and pull your arms to the rear and then hold on to the sleeves while you begin to move into that sequence of techniques?

 

While I will agree that some scenarios seem more unlikely than others, I believe it's entirely possible that in a fluid conflict, say, as I try to escape a particular hold and manuever around, I may find myself in position to apply the technique that ordinarily would seem least likely to present itself. And I will be ready.

 

I don't hold any illusions that an attacker will wait for me to get into a horse-riding stance and yell out "Dee Eue Bahk Soo #5, sir!". Going slow and methodical during training simply helps you to identify and correct mistakes, that's all.

 

Sorry if I sounded gruff in my earlier post. In going round and round with another poster in a different thread, who doesn't understand KSW and was trying to denigrate it, I think I let some emotion it spill over into this thread. I apologize if so.

 

BTW - the set of techniques you are referring to are the Joo Muhk Maga Ki Bohn Soo - the advanced version of the Ki Bohn Soo (the first set of techniques you ever learn in KSW, for those not familiar).

[Isshinryu88]

No problem.

 

I found the other thread you were talking about. I suppose they should move this one to the Korean Arts forum.

 

Just out of curiosity-

 

Do you see what I was trying to say when I talked about getting everything put together in one package? When you spoke of fluid contact, I think we are talking about the same thing, only you wrote specific to ending up in a position of the technique I spoke of.

 

I've been doing JKD and have come to accept their view of fluidity of contact (I like that terminology) as being everything from "you can't touch me" range to "Man, I can count the pores in your skin" range.

 

I don't want to be too specific, but I know of someone in KS, past black belt, who said that he hasn't had any training in the fashion I spoke of. Does your school continue integrating beyond Jue Mahk Maga Ki Bon Soo ( I got tired of trying to describe stuff and just went and got my book )?

 

Thanks!

[DLopez]

Do you see what I was trying to say when I talked about getting everything put together in one package? When you spoke of fluid contact, I think we are talking about the same thing, only you wrote specific to ending up in a position of the technique I spoke of.

 

Yes, I do.

 

I'm not sure I know the solution, as all it would take is for another student to not know when to ease up and injure my arm or neck, and there goes my training for a while. Plus, everyone's threshold for pain is different.

 

I can't imagine letting the kids go at each other full speed! (Okay, well maybe I'd like to apply a technique or two full speed on some of the kids myself!!) ((Oops, did I just type that out loud?))

 

I guess the decision was made to just err on the safe side.