Krav Maga, opinions and Spiritual or just self defense?

[Master Jules]

We learn to embrace the pain.

[47MartialMan]

Heck, no i don't embrace pain, just mentaly brace myself for it. Hey, is that Chi?

[delta1]

So delta1, KM has its cons as well as other arts?

 

Didn't say anything about other arts, and I qualified my statement about KM by saying I'd like to see it done right (assuming there is a better way) before I draw conclusions on its' efficacy. But, what I've seen, which isn't much, was not good. Another example, when I see someone step in and lean waaaaay in to a punch, I think "Gift from the war gods!" It might do a lot of dammage if it connects. But if he slips it and cranes the arm, it's all over for the KM guy.

 

KM has some good things as well, like I said. Their use of training under stress is excellent. Same with the simple, direct, instinctive moves. But there seems to be some dangerouse moves also.

 

To be fair, this is a common problem with CQC courses. They are designed to be learned quickly, and yet still be effective. They are usually extremely aggressive, brutal, and tend to be direct. It's a winner take all mindset, which is appropriate for the situations they are training for. Problem is, you don't allways 'win'. That pin isn't as solid as it should be, and his natural reaction is to jerk the knife hand free. The direction of the force of your strike not only aids that move, but adds an element of urgency to the withdrawal. You may smash his face, but if that was a double edged knife he was using, you just got your bicep and inside your forearm cut.

 

Another example, SCARS (we'll pick on someone else a bit) teaches to always 'land' forward from a kick. Their reasoning is that if you connect, you will drive them back, and you want an unrelenting attack with constant forward pressure. Not a bad thing. Wing Chun uses this. But, the difference is that WC stays in ballance and control so that if the kick does not connect, they can 'plant' in ballance and continue their attack. A true martial artist never gives up his ballance or overcommits his momentum. But, in a lot of CQC courses, you assume the attack is successful for the sake of expediting the class. KM does this with that overcommited punch I mentioned.

 

What I see is that SCARS can be tweeked a little- the circles tightened up, stances and footwork modified- and it can be a viable system. But, if KM teaches things like traping a weapon hand in the crook of your arm, that is something that is dangerously wrong, no matter how much you tweek it.

 

I still think the best CQC stuff is from WWII combatives- Fairbane/Sykes & Applegate). Simple, direct, brutally effective, and allways in ballance. Quickly learned as well. But I'd still say that you should continue to add to your base, no matter what CQC course you study.

 

My opinion, your mileage may varry.

[Master Jules]

True....the "overcommitment" is always a bad idea....balance must always be had at all times.

[47MartialMan]

Wowee delta, I was looking for such a commentary!!!!

 

Thanks........

 

Any websites that I may visit?

[Fat Donkey]

Well, you guys have made some good points and there r a lot of questionable things we learn in the Krav Classes. 95% of the class r yuppies and moms trying to get fit and learn self defense, so the classes r geared towards that. I'm holding out for the more advanced classes where u go toe to toe hard contact. With multiple opponents etc. What I do like is the flexibility of the style and the good organisation. Also the seminars allow u to check out certain aspects u might want to try. I can go to any Krav class in the world using my card. We're a new club so it's not the same as MT where u have a lot of hard core fighters who r willing and eager to fight and take the pain. We'll see how it works out because if I don't get my hard sparring in 3 to 6 months then I'm going to have to look somewhere else.

[delta1]

Hey, big guy! Where you been hiding? Good to hear from you.

 

Couple of questions. First off, that type of trap where you pin his weapon hand in the bent crook of an arm would only work on an untrained, inexperienced fighter, it seems to me. Someone that knows what he's doing would not give you that kind of commitment. Are there any other types of weapons defenses that are stressed in KM that would work for an experienced opponent?

 

Next, you are a MT fighter, so you obviously understand aggression, know how to work angles and use elbows. I'm curiouse about how this would work on a trained KM guy. Take a practice knife and put lipstick on the cutting surfaces (Kiss of Death ). Make sure to have him pick a color that he likes, as I suspect he may as well get some Rit Dye for his uniform while he's getting the lipstick . Attack with your right (knife) hand. As he traps and steps in to his strike, assume that the pin is solid- in fact, let him get a solid pin to see if this works. Immediately counter by pivoting on the ball of your left foot and delivering an upward elbow to his chin. If he's not close enough to pivot and reach, step in with your left and elbow strike. If you get inside his punch, you jack his jaw. If outside (more likely, since his punch is crossing in and your reaction probably won't beat his action unless he telegraphed) you drive his punch up and across, crossing him up and taking his ballance. Outside, bring that elbow up and across to get the proper angle and to protect your head. Either way, you'll loosen that pin. But, I think this will work on even an experienced KMer, because the compound angles you create give leverage to your pull as well as take the angle he was counting on to make that pin work away from him. Also, using leverage and angles, the knife doesn't just jerk free and cut as it comes out (bad enough in itself). It turns and slices deep, and comes out in a controled manner, close in and ready to deliver the fatal strike. If you got inside, it is pointed at his throat. Quickly stab upto his throat or under his jaw. If you got outside, continue to track downward to thrust into his solar plex, turning the knife upward to be sure and get into his diaphram. And don't forget to check his forward knee, limmiting his movement and further taking his ballance.

 

If you could, try that with your instructor and see what he says or how he deals with it. Let us know how it went (and what color he chose)!

[47MartialMan]

I like FTD.....

[delta1]

I like FTD.....

 

You'd send flowers?

[47MartialMan]

FTD.....

 

Finger Technique Defense

 

Then, you send flowers