Krav Maga, opinions and Spiritual or just self defense?

[karlberg]

I would just like to say that Km as a system is always under construction, so if they would find out that those hooks against knives didn't work, they wouldn't be a part of the system anymore.

 

I have tried them in full speed with metal knives, not sharp once, and they worked for me.

 

Yes if the opponent is twice your size and your not good att that technic, then don't use it. You will get hurt if you don't do it correct.

 

Another thing about the knife fight as we train in KM is that you can almost count on getting a cut somewhere during the fight, but you don't have to give up because of that.

 

Most often you don't die after one stab, you will lose lots of blood and your brain is not gonna work * good as usual, but you have a few seconds before you loose that much blood and it gives you a few seconds too winn and get away.

 

Delta1: how much KM have you seen and how experienced were those guys? Have you tried the system for a longer period or just a seminar or two? I just would like to know, because I've heard many guy trashtalking KM and when you ask them how much they really know they only seen it one or twice.

 

I have a good example from the loockerroom after practice two weeks ago.

 

The were this big guy that came up to me and afew friends from my practice group. He said that in Shootfighting ( he was a shootfighter since 6 month back it turned out) they had a headlock that he belived that noone could get out of. I told him that it wouldn't be a problem get out of his headlock. I told him try it on me, well so he did. He held it pretty tight and I slowely raised my hands and put my fingertip lightly on his eyes, that losened up his grip and I could step out of it.

 

Just so that you know, I did this in slowmotion and it still worked.

 

I asked him what he would have liked it if I did it in full speed and realy pooked his eyes.

 

His reply was: In our sport you are not allowed to pooke someone in the eyes. And he admitted that it worked pretty damn good.

 

Not that this realy brings anything to this topik but it shows how much faith some people have to their own art.

 

I'm not saying that KM is the greatest thing on earth, but it's a system I belive in and it fits my needs.

[karlberg]

I would just like to say that Km as a system is always under construction, so if they would find out that those hooks against knives didn't work, they wouldn't be a part of the system anymore.

 

I have tried them in full speed with metal knives, not sharp once, and they worked for me.

 

Yes if the opponent is twice your size and your not good att that technic, then don't use it. You will get hurt if you don't do it correct.

 

Another thing about the knife fight as we train in KM is that you can almost count on getting a cut somewhere during the fight, but you don't have to give up because of that.

 

Most often you don't die after one stab, you will lose lots of blood and your brain is not gonna work * good as usual, but you have a few seconds before you loose that much blood and it gives you a few seconds too winn and get away.

 

Delta1: how much KM have you seen and how experienced were those guys? Have you tried the system for a longer period or just a seminar or two? I just would like to know, because I've heard many guy trashtalking KM and when you ask them how much they really know they only seen it one or twice.

 

I have a good example from the loockerroom after practice two weeks ago.

 

The were this big guy that came up to me and afew friends from my practice group. He said that in Shootfighting ( he was a shootfighter since 6 month back it turned out) they had a headlock that he belived that noone could get out of. I told him that it wouldn't be a problem get out of his headlock. I told him try it on me, well so he did. He held it pretty tight and I slowely raised my hands and put my fingertip lightly on his eyes, that losened up his grip and I could step out of it.

 

Just so that you know, I did this in slowmotion and it still worked.

 

I asked him what he would have liked it if I did it in full speed and realy pooked his eyes.

 

His reply was: In our sport you are not allowed to pooke someone in the eyes. And he admitted that it worked pretty damn good.

 

Not that this realy brings anything to this topik but it shows how much faith some people have to their own art.

 

I'm not saying that KM is the greatest thing on earth, but it's a system I belive in and it fits my needs.

[karlberg]

...

[delta1]

Yes if the opponent is twice your size and your not good att that technic, then don't use it. You will get hurt if you don't do it correct.

 

OK. But, the whole point of these CQC courses, including KM, is that they are a quickly learned set of skills that work for anyone and are easily applied effectively. If you want to pick and choose, you probably need a more comprehensive art.

Another thing about the knife fight as we train in KM is that you can almost count on getting a cut somewhere during the fight, but you don't have to give up because of that.

 

True of most arts. Some even train you to use your own cuts against your opponent. Fear of infection from blood contact is one obviouse tool, but not allways effective. Another is a cut on your arm that causes blood to run to your fingertips. Flick the blood into his eyes. Not only takes advantage of fear of infection, if he's prone to that, but possibly interferes with his vision. Will probably distract him for a moment. But, more than that, the smell of the adrenalin in your blood can induce fear in your opponent, while useing the injury instead of worrying about it can have a positive effect on your state of mind.

Most often you don't die after one stab, you will lose lots of blood and your brain is not gonna work * good as usual, but you have a few seconds before you loose that much blood and it gives you a few seconds too winn and get away.

 

OK, but, as you pointed out, you are now debilitated, less effective, and time is on his side. Also, with the type of injury I'm talking about if that knife is withdrawn through a hard clenched elbow, you probably have a major injury that effects muscle, tendons, and major nerves and blood vessels. You immediately loose the use of that arm, and are in seriouse trouble- probably going very quickly (if not immediately) into the advanced stages of shock.

Delta1: how much KM have you seen and how experienced were those guys? Have you tried the system for a longer period or just a seminar or two? I just would like to know, because I've heard many guy trashtalking KM and when you ask them how much they really know they only seen it one or twice.

 

The practitioners were experienced. I indicated that I've seen very little KM in my post. I also said it was not enough to form an opinion on the entire system. I also said I saw some good things, but pointed out a couple of things that bothered me. And, I asked FD to try an experiment as a practitioner of KM andan experienced martial artist, and to let me know how it goes. I'm not trashing your system, but I am saying there may be problems there. For the record, I think there are a couple of problems or defficiencies in my base (Kenpo), and have said so on this forum before. And, I cross train. So don't be offended by my pointing out what might be some problems in your system. Instead, I'd suggest experimenting to see if you think I might have a point, and maybe adjusting if you conclude I'm correct. If not, continue as you are and post details of your findings. If you were able to counter my proposed counter to your pin, how did you do it? What do your instructors say about it?

I'm not saying that KM is the greatest thing on earth, but it's a system I belive in and it fits my needs.

 

Frankly, that is what matters. But never close your mind or think you've learned all you can, even from a short CQC course. Continue to tweek the system so that it works better for you. Go outside your base to gain better understanding of how your base works, and sometimes to find things to bring back and incorporate with your base.

 

Sorry you took offense, but I still think there may be a couple of problems, based on my "very limmited" experience with KM.

[47MartialMan]

Bravo delta,

 

I think everyone tends to "over-rate" their training systems. That's why I like the thread "Good and Bad of Your Sttyle". To me, ALL systems have good and bad. Or shall it should be put-Pros/Cons.

 

As I alwasy say;

 

Versitility makes a Versitile Martial Artist

[karlberg]

Delta1:

 

I wasn't offended, it actually feels like we think the same way.

 

I do belive in crosstraining, especially since KM is a mix of other systems. There are many great systems and I would like to try some of them, as a matter of fact I might attend to a Kali sikaran seminar in a fes weeks. The name of that seminar is Knife.

 

Kempo I on't know were much about so I don't have an opinon about it, but from what I have heard it's supposed to be a very good system aswell.

 

I'm not here to defend Krav Maga, I'm here to discuss the system.

 

But about the crook against knives, It's not anything you early in the system, it comes on a more advanced level.

 

the system is designed so that you are suppost to be abel to use what you learn at once. First you learn to block the knife attacks and to get away from you opponent. The croock is used when you are going to dissarm your opponent.

[47MartialMan]

What about diarming the crook?

[delta1]

karlberg, good enough. Actually, most knife defenses I've seen are a little questionable (though i have seen some good ones in many different styles).

 

American Kenpo has some specific empty hands > knife techniques at upper levels. But, generally, the highest form of AK is to use your basic techniques/principles & concepts both against and with a knife. Knife fighting incorporates a few more principles & concepts, but they are easily fit into our base skills and used.

[White Warlock]

Capturing a knife-wielding arm in the crook of your arm is bad for so many reasons, one of which is the major artery exposed there. It's like trying to parry a sword thrust with your neck!

 

As to the bloodloss issue, the biggest concern is the loss in blood pressure that occurs almost immediately after your are cut. If you are straining yourself, as you would in a confrontation, this drop in blood pressure could easily cause you to become disoriented or fall unconscious right then and there.

 

Anyway, i am totally unfamiliar with krav maga in particular, but am very familiar with cqc training, as they are usually taught. Not a whole lot in them, although some good things to consider. The goal of most cqc training is to provide a quick course on aggressiveness and predator training, with very little depth in regards to technique. If krav maga is of that nature, it can benefit some to be 'exposed' to it... just so they can adjust their future training sessions in whatever system they are in... to have a more 'realistic' approach. But, for indepth study in the arts, you really need to study systems that specialize in the various elements cqcs only dabble in.

[delta1]

...Styles: iron face kung fu... It's like trying to parry a sword thrust with your neck!

 

You don't do that?

As to the bloodloss issue, the biggest concern is the loss in blood pressure that occurs almost immediately after your are cut. If you are straining yourself, as you would in a confrontation, this drop in blood pressure could easily cause you to become disoriented or fall unconscious right then and there.

 

Yes, that is what I meant by going immedately into the advanced phases of shock. You've worked with this before, I believe. But most people don't realize that there are several phases of shock, and you can be in seriouse trouble before any of the signs of shock show. But when someone goes immediately into the latter phases, where signs are obviouse, he's in seriouse trouble. Especially with hypovolemic shock (shock due in whole or in part to blood loss).

 

You are likely to get cut in a knife fight, true enough. But, there are ways to minimize the chances of a really seriouse cut. Exposing the inside of both your forearm and upper arm to the possibility of a seriouse cut is not one of these, in my opinion. And if you loose the angle that that pin depends on to work, accidentally or as a result of a counter, you are in trouble no matter how solid that pin was.

 

Again, I'm only suggesting you try this before training it into an automatic response, and judge for yourself. I'm not saying KM or any other system that uses this is worthless. I don't know. But I cringe when I think about the possibilities here...