Muay Thai

[SevenStar]

Sevenstar,

 

The grappling defenses found in many striking systems include knee strikes to the face, as take down defenses. Also, finger strikes to vital areas such as eyes and throat etc; back fist/elbow strikes to the back of the skull and neck area.

 

you are absolutely right. The problem with most of those is that by the time you have opportunity to do them, you are already off the ground, which takes your striking power down significantly. If you don't think so, ahave someone double leg you, and strike downward at them - you WILL go down. Those things can work, but you must stop the takedown first. he shoots, you sprawl, THEN knee to the face. If he blocks it, you will likely still go down, dut if it lands, it could be lights out for him.

 

In my style of wing chun there is grappling techniques when there is one on one grappling on the floor, using the fighting principles of the style. Grappling and "anti" grappling techniques exist in many numerous kung fu styles.

 

it's been my experience that applying standing locking techniques on the ground doesn't work well. While I was in longfist, I grappled with people who tried that - it didn't work well. A buddy of mine let an aikido exponent try to lock him on the ground - didn't work... the principles are different enough that you can't expect the techniques to just perfectly translate to the ground.

 

I will also point out that many traditional fighting arts were given techniques to defend against takedowns by their founders, wether these are taught by today´s senseis or sifus in an era dominated by Mcdojos is another story.

 

I believe that may have been true with japanese styles, but I'm not sure about chinese, unless it was dog boxing. Regardless though, that has no bearing on the training of today, as you said.

 

Also, it is good to remember that many fights start with word exchange first and sometimes the first strike finishes the fight, i.e. There is not always a controlled match situation.

 

there may not be a first strike. You only need a few inches to shoot, and less than that to merely grab and takedown. I can take you down just as easily as you can strike. When I posted the above, I wasn't thinking about a controlled match situation.

[Rich_2k3]

no the only fights that end on the ground are either untrained fighters, or grapplers wanting to controlt he action on the ground.

 

Both are ill advised.

 

I am also 100% confident that all things considered equal a striker never has to go to the ground or get tied up in the streets.

 

sport fighting is another matter all together since it is in a confined space and has rules.

 

now, a grappler that is trained can take down a good striker that doesnt know how to stop shoot ins.

 

but I am a firm believer that once someone knows how to stop that it wont do the grappler any good.

 

Correct

[wing chun kuen man]

Sevenstar,

 

You made some good and valid points, thank you. I just want to stress that many anti takedown techniques and ground techniques exist in karate and yes kung fu styles. The problem is to find authentic schools with knowledgable instructors who teach these techniques and not just brush over them. I am glad to say that good schools do exist, but not many. I want to add as well that most major kung fu style will have a good portion of Chin-na techniques incorporated within their curriculum. And for those who know, Chin-na can be lethal standing up or on the ground.

 

My wing chun sifu here in Rio told me of a sparring session(friendly) he had with one brazilian jiu-jitsu champion in an academy where they were both teachers. He said that his opponent had no answer for his -controlled- chin-na techniques and eventually got confused and irritated, at which point my sifu stopped the confrontation. My sifu´s idea was to make this match a learning experience (for whom I wonder now) and not a violent confrontation.

 

Wing Chun has chin-na techniques within its curriculum and also because of the nature of the style its striking techniques are very effective on the ground as well, more so than many other "striking arts".

 

As far as close range takedowns are concerned I would not recomment it if one is facing a Wing Chun or any kung fu expert for that matter. On the other hand I think nowadays one is much and I mean much more likely to meet a good grappler in a fight than a REAL kung fu expert - sometimes I even think that a street fight involving Bin Ladin rather than an authentic kung fu fighter is a more probable occurance. It is to do not just with lack of good schools but also with the time span involved in reaching a lets say "effective" level in kung fu. It takes a lot less time to acquire self defence skills in bjj or MT than in any kung fu or even a traditional karate style. That is why when a friend asks me to recommend a self defense system the first thing that I ask is "how much time do you want to put in it?" For faster results yes bjj, MT, Krave Maga etc. For people who are not in too much of a hurry then I recommend various kung fu or even karate styles.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

.....should i be pointing out that the wing chun punhing doesn't work very well when you don't have the ground beneath your feet?

 

dude, in most of your posts,

 

you seem to be hinting/suggesting that you are a REAL kung fu guy and that the rest of us are not.

 

or am i the only one who sees this?

[47MartialMan]

And... I have seen many/most street and bar room fights that DID NOT end up on the ground.

[wing chun kuen man]

DM,

 

It is all about using the earth energy (the ground) for effective punching. When on the ground this energy can be utilized in a differente way then when standing up. Ask your sifu, he may enlighten you on the matter - or then he may not - I honestly don´t know.

 

With comments like that you are the one "hinting/suggesting" that you are not a REAL kung fu guy, not me.

 

Eventhough I study in an authentic and a traditional wing chun style/school, I am a long way away from being a "real kung fu guy" maybe another five years of non-stop practice if not more are needed, for me to make such claims. So yes, you may be the only one "who sees this" implication in "most" of my posts or at least you are the only one who brings it up.

 

"Dude"?

 

Could you and WW be the same person? Or has he been helping you brush up on your english writing skills?

 

47MartialMan,

 

I agree with you there. Eventhough some people will have different experiences with street fights most fights that I have seen - including here in Rio where everyone and their grandmothers seem to be practicing bjj - did not go to the ground (not both fighters at least...he he he) I think that many people in REAL street fights instinctively avoid going to the ground because of the uncertainties that are involved in such action.

 

By the way when I talk about real street fights, I am not "hinting/suggesting" that I am a REAL street fighter and the rest of you are not.....LOL

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[47MartialMan]

I have seen an experinced JJ get punched in the face and KNOCKED OUT in a bar.

[SevenStar]

 

You made some good and valid points, thank you. I just want to stress that many anti takedown techniques and ground techniques exist in karate and yes kung fu styles. The problem is to find authentic schools with knowledgable instructors who teach these techniques and not just brush over them. I am glad to say that good schools do exist, but not many. I want to add as well that most major kung fu style will have a good portion of Chin-na techniques incorporated within their curriculum. And for those who know, Chin-na can be lethal standing up or on the ground.

 

didn't the chinese think is was dishonorable to fight on the ground? That's why I have my doubts - that and the noticeable lack of ground fighting.

 

Wing Chun has chin-na techniques within its curriculum and also because of the nature of the style its striking techniques are very effective on the ground as well, more so than many other "striking arts".

 

most chinese styles have chin na incorporated. if it is goung to be used effectively on the ground, it needs to be practiced on the ground. There was a WC exponent at the school I was training logfist at (he was one of the ones I was referring to) He now helps teach the WC program there.

 

As far as close range takedowns are concerned I would not recomment it if one is facing a Wing Chun or any kung fu expert for that matter.

 

I don't see any reason why not...what would a kung fu expert do to defend the takedown?

 

On the other hand I think nowadays one is much and I mean much more likely to meet a good grappler in a fight than a REAL kung fu expert

 

I agree. That raises the question though - what constitutes a REAL kung fu expert and where are they?

 

sometimes I even think that a street fight involving Bin Ladin rather than an authentic kung fu fighter is a more probable occurance.

 

 

It is to do not just with lack of good schools but also with the time span involved in reaching a lets say "effective" level in kung fu. It takes a lot less time to acquire self defence skills in bjj or MT than in any kung fu or even a traditional karate style.

 

definitely

 

That is why when a friend asks me to recommend a self defense system the first thing that I ask is "how much time do you want to put in it?" For faster results yes bjj, MT, Krave Maga etc. For people who are not in too much of a hurry then I recommend various kung fu or even karate styles.

 

That's not really the right quesiton to ask, IMO. you will put PLENTY of time into getting MT and BJJ down. It won't take long to learn the strikes - with the exception of the roundhouse - that can be quite complicated to get the mechanics of - but there is much more to it than that. On avg. it can take 4 years just to get a purple belt in bjj. It's not an quickly mastered system at all. you will gain useable self defense skills quickly, however.

[SevenStar]

I have seen an experinced JJ get punched in the face and KNOCKED OUT in a bar.

 

that's life - it happens. I've seen WAY more traditional guys get mauled on the streets than sport guys though.

[Drunken Monkey]

With comments like that you are the one "hinting/suggesting" that you are not a REAL kung fu guy, not me

 

how?

 

i am just presenting one interpretation of what can be construed from the way you type/say things.

 

you are the one who presents the notion of a 'real' kung fu guy.

 

sometimes I even think that a street fight involving Bin Ladin rather than an authentic kung fu fighter is a more probable occurance

 

this shows your view on most kung fu guys.

 

It is all about using the earth energy (the ground) for effective punching

 

this isn't what i'm talking about.

 

i'm talking about basic structure.

 

it is next to impossible to line up the six gates when you don't have either foot on the floor.

 

the next best thing is to use the ground behind your shoulders (or get into position that simulates).

 

Ask your sifu, he may enlighten you on the matter - or then he may not

 

in this line i can see your 'your sifu isn't as good as mine' view popping up again....

 

Could you and WW be the same person

 

how?

 

cos we occasionally use the same word?

 

By the way when I talk about real street fights, I am not "hinting/suggesting" that I am a REAL street fighter and the rest of you are not

 

now you're just being silly.

 

the instance i pointed to previously shows you to have a fixed idea about what/who is a REAL kung fu sifu

 

and

 

that you believe that most of them who teach are not.

 

in no way does that bare any resemblance to the line i quoted above.

 

stop trying to mock me and try to answer the questions simply and clearly.