Kirves Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Good points from all of you. I'd like to say something more about the pro vs. amateurship of martial artists. As already pointed out, most of the "UFC" people are pros. Most of TMA instructors are not. This is of course just generalization, there are people in UFC who have real jobs, as well as there are TMA professionals too, they are the exception to the rule. But what is different about them is the purpose. Many people start BJJ, Mixed Martial Arts, Vale Tudo or whatever because they are interested in fighting in tournament environment. That is the total opposite of the person who joins the local Koryu Jujutsu club because he is completely not interested in tournaments. Both guys study 10 years, and whoa what happens? The Vale Tudo guy comes saying the TMA guy is a coward or incompetent because he won't go to a tournament! Hello, it was a personal choice made ten years ago. I use myself as an example. I am not the best fighter in the dojo I'm a member in. The instructor is the best of us. There are dozens of clubs in my hometown. I would believe that some instructor in our town could beat my instructor up. But there probably is some instructor in some other town who could beat the best guy of our town. There may be someone in some town who is the best fighter in our country. But hey, there are people in other countries who can beat him up! Now, why on earth would any of these people concern themselves with wether or not they are the best fighter in the world? I have a full time job, a family with a child and pets. I have other hobbies besides martial arts. My priorities lie elsewhere than proving that me or my art is the best. If some day I'm the best in my dojo, I'm still humble enough to understand, there probably is someone in my town who can beat me still. If I get to be the best in our town, I'm still not the best in my country. If ever I become the best in my dojo, what will I do? Will I go around fighting people to prove it? No, I will concentrate on helping my fellow dojomates to make them as good as I am. That's what budo is all about. I don't have to prove anyone anything, I'm here because other people helped me, and I'm here to help them. Do you really think I give a rat's butt if someone came to the dojo door and said he was better than me, or his style was better than mine? I say okay, and continue training as planned. Then I go home, kiss my wife, play with my kid, take out the dog, go to work and let other people wonder if they could beat me in a ring or not. It does not interest me, it does not interest many other TMA students and the problem with the Vale Tudo guys is that they try to force the TMA people to become interested when they don't give a rat's squat about it.
LOILOI44 Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Kirves, you are a voice of reason. Well thought out post.
Kensai Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Actually I thought both LOILOI44 and Kirves were very well thought out posts. I have always tried to voice such an arguement, but I have never been able to articulate it in that way.
Kyle-san Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Kirves made the TMA point very well and, ironically enough, that applies to a situation I'm having in the Ketto Ryu dojo I'm training at. Thanks, it's got me thinking in a different direction.
Kirves Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Thanks, it's got me thinking in a different direction. Heh, nice, thinking is always good. Now that I look at my post, it looks like a bit of generalized rant... Well, what the heck. The funny thing is that the Vale Tudo (I use that term as a generic synonym for all the "NHB-freefighters") guys make the fact that TMA people don't go to tournaments seem as if it meant they were hiding under a rock somewhere. That certainly is not the case. Few people in my club go to tournaments, but our door is always open for reasonable people. If you don't come in barking challenges, but ask politely if you can attend a class, you are welcome. Our classes always include free sparring too, as well as limited sparring drills. If a guy wants to test us, just come in and train a class with us. In two hours he will have seen some of our stuff and how we do it, and has had the chance to spar with all of us too. If he beats everyone up in the sparring sessions, good for him. Good for us too, as nothing teaches you more than sparring with someone more skilled than you are. It doesn't have to be a public tournament setting for someone to come test us out. For some weird reason, regardless of all the stuff said in the public, few people ever come to our door asking for a session.
Mr Heel Hook Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Well, as nice as it might sound...as in...the "Masters" don't need to prove themselves...it's not a perfect world. And people hardly ever speak softly while carrying a big stick. The point is to prove their style is best. That's what is thought through all of history. So if I went up to a karate sensei. and asked what Martial art should I take, do you think he will say another? No, he will say come to my Karate school because blah blah blah. Some things don't need to be expressed in words. People will always believe their art is better. You have said so yourself in your own way by saying BJJ is incomplete. So the idea of humility on that level just isn't reality. Now I'm not saying they walk around like they are the biggest best bad mo'fo's ever, but that thought lingers in the back of his mind. Why would anyone devote themselves to a martial art they didn't believe was the best or one of the best. That is strictly speaking on a fighting level and nothing spiritual. The mentality is there no matter what anyone denies. However, the proving grounds seem to be missing these Masters, or at least, followers of their art. As for "the point of martial arts is not to use them"...all I can say to that is...duh. Who walks around town looking for a fight to prove how tuff they are? We are speaking of and in the fighting circuit where you won't die if you lose. You figure someone from all these "stand up" arts would arrive on the scene to prove they are as good as anyone else and to show what what they can teach would be just as useful. It hasn't happened yet...I wonder why. As for BJJ being incomplete: Why are there so many winners then from that style in the world? I mean after all, the champion of Pride is a BJJ guy. You figure the more Japanese Jiu Jitsu would dominate that circuit. After all, PRIDE is held in Japan...I guess you might be incorrect? "A deer admires a lion. But all the members of our family are lions. So it doesn't matter which lion I admire. " -Rener Gracie-
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 mr heel hook has made some good points , and it must be a slap in the face for the japanese that the champion of pride is a brazilian jiujitsu guy and not a judo/jiujitsu/shooto/karate/ninpo guy i guess this shows that bjj can't be that bad and that it must have certain advantages over the traditional martial arts "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
Kyle-san Posted January 31, 2003 Posted January 31, 2003 i guess this shows that bjj can't be that bad and that it must have certain advantages over the traditional martial arts In the tournament scene, it definately does. Which is exactly what Kirves pointed out.
Kirves Posted January 31, 2003 Posted January 31, 2003 he will say come to my Karate school because blah blah blah. Some things don't need to be expressed in words. People will always believe their art is better. You have said so yourself in your own way by saying BJJ is incomplete. He will probably say "Try my karate." I don't think he'll say "Come to my karate cause there's nothing better in existence." That's the difference between what a TMA guy says and what the BJJ guys here say. Yes, I believe BJJ is incomplete. I also believe "my karate" is incomplete. The point is not which art is complete, which isn't. The point is you don't see me running around the crowd claiming my style beats any style. But you do see the BJJ guys doing that. The BJJ guys can not say that their art is incomplete, but TMA people can say it about their arts. It's all an ego thing, I guess.You figure the more Japanese Jiu Jitsu would dominate that circuit. After all, PRIDE is held in Japan...I guess you might be incorrect? Add a rule to the Pride that katanas and knives, sticks and staffs are allowed weapons in the ring and you'll see some nice changes in the results - I guess to the favor of traditional jujutsu. Now, that's what I mean when I say BJJ is incomplete.
Mr Heel Hook Posted January 31, 2003 Posted January 31, 2003 As for speaking about weapons, that's just a mute point and won't even bother with that one. An ego thing? Yeah, that is true on ALL fronts. From BJJ to horse shoe tossing. Ego is a part of the human equation. As bad as that sounds, it's actually an important thing at times. But, nothing you said really changed the points I made. As said before, people tend to think there style is better. Please don't ad-lib meanings on what I say. Nothing said changed the points I made. It doesn't even really warrant a response. "A deer admires a lion. But all the members of our family are lions. So it doesn't matter which lion I admire. " -Rener Gracie-
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