Kirves Posted January 27, 2003 Posted January 27, 2003 kenpo4life, the gracies deserve more respect than that, they have changed the face of the martial arts as we know it That is very true. I for one, saw the ads for Gracie Action 1 for years on in Black Belt, never thinking twice about them. They were just like any other ads and I wasn't interested. Then I read a book by Chuck Norris and he said his friend cohersed him to go see a BJJ club with him while on vacation, Norris went and said they were amazing, yet I thought nothing of it. Then I saw Paul Vunak say that he got interested in BJJ when he noticed that people with 6 months of BJJ training easily beat up black belts of various arts. At that point I got interested enough to rent the UFC-1 video and the rest is history. It finally sunk in that you have to know how to handle ground fighting too. If it weren't for the Gracies, it could have been for decades before it would have happened like this. I mean, we have had these NHB events all this time, but before Gracies and their UFC, not that many of us traditional MA:tists were that interested in them.
LOILOI44 Posted January 28, 2003 Posted January 28, 2003 There are many misconceptions about the statistic that 90% of all fights end up on the ground. The study was conducted by either the F.B.I. or the U.S.D.O.J. I haven't been able to find the actual study. The study was done in regards to fights involving law enforcement officers. There are some obvious key difference between a street fight/MMA competition and and fights involving police. First of all in a fight, your intention is not to restrain your opponent and handcuff him or her. When making an arrest, your main objective is your own safety. Then you would have to restrain your suspect and place handcuffs on them. It is easier to cuff a person when they are lying on their stomach (when they are resisting) than if they were standing. In addition, when you are in a street fight/MMA event you are not armed. When making an arrest you must protect your weapon at all costs. This adds a whole new dynamic to the confrontation. The statistic does not apply to every day life. As far as cross training goes, if you are loyal to a certain style or school, why not stick with it if it works for you? The problems I have seen with cross training is that no all styles fit perfectly together. I recently went to https://www.bjj.org. Not knowing that much about the style, I wanted to do some research. Now I'm sure there are more techniques than were shown on the website, but from what I saw it was basic Judo and Japanese or traditional JuiJitsu without the throws and added were wrestling like shoot takedowns. Maybe I'm biased, but Japanese JJ to me seems like the most well rounded art with no need for cross training. In it's tradtional form it has everything including ground fighting. You have to remember this style was devised to fight an opponent who is usually armed(sword) and wearing armour. If it was good enough for the samurai, it works for me.
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 JUST BECAUSE IT HAS GROUND FIGHTING DOESN'T MEAN ITS GOOD, i studied ninpo for a while and their groundfighting was from jujitsu it was terrible, stop trying to justify that your art is better than bjj, you might think that, but BJJ IS NOT JUST JUDO AND WRESTLING, its a style all on its own and i can't belive you would say that if it worked for the samurai its good for me, the samurai, never even really used jujitsu, if he fell off his horse he was screwed and who knows if it even worked for them, is there documentation? and your not covered with armor and yielding a sword, so its tottaly different, and bjj is not wrestling and judo , STOP TRYING TO PUT BJJ DOWN, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THATS FINE, but keep your comments to yourself, constructive criticism is fine but not oh bjj is just judo and wresling, your so ignorant "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
Kirves Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 The study was conducted by either the F.B.I. or the U.S.D.O.J. Yeah, I read about that too. It had something to do with Bill Wallace saying the statistic thing in UFC because it was fed to him by the organizers and later the stats were dug out and shown what they were all about.
Kirves Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 i studied ninpo for a while and their groundfighting was from jujitsu it was terrible Terrible to the cage, yes. Because it comes from Samurai battlefield and there you had to consider terrain, dead bodies, blades and half a dozen samurai with blades all while trying to get up from the ground. Also, ninpo (BBT) assumes you might be wearing armor or other inhibiting clothing.
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 yes thats what makes it terrible for todays standards , sure if it was still i dunno 200 a.d. you'd be able to kick some ass with your ninpo and jujitsu training, because thats the time period it was designed for , but ninpo especially (at least where i learnt it) needs to be modified to be street applicable, i studied genbukan ninpo "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
SBN Doug Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 Everybody take a deep breath.....and....exhale. Kuk Sool Won - 4th danEvil triumphs when good men do nothing.
LOILOI44 Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 JUST BECAUSE IT HAS GROUND FIGHTING DOESN'T MEAN ITS GOOD, i studied ninpo for a while and their groundfighting was from jujitsu it was terrible, stop trying to justify that your art is better than bjj, you might think that, but BJJ IS NOT JUST JUDO AND WRESTLING, its a style all on its own and i can't belive you would say that if it worked for the samurai its good for me, the samurai, never even really used jujitsu, if he fell off his horse he was screwed and who knows if it even worked for them, is there documentation? and your not covered with armor and yielding a sword, so its tottaly different, and bjj is not wrestling and judo , STOP TRYING TO PUT BJJ DOWN, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THATS FINE, but keep your comments to yourself, constructive criticism is fine but not oh bjj is just judo and wresling, your so ignorant Please tell me where I said that I don't like BJJ. Please define what your definition of constructive criticism is. An oppinion that disagrees with yours can't be constructive? Where do you think BJJ comes from? Every single technique that I saw on https://www.bjj.org is right out of Kodokan Judo by Prof. Jigoro Kano. Techniques like the scarf hold, and the paintbrush, and the triangle have been around for centuries, they just have different names. JJFighter, I was making an observation. It was an observation based on my training in martial arts. My experience in the martial arts is different from yours, does that make mine any less valuable than yours? As far as the samurai go, where did you hear that samurai did not practice JuiJitsu? There were many different versions, but they were all JuiJitsu. Also not all samurai rode horses. In addition, if a person could be effective in combat while wearing clunky armor don't you think they would be more effective with out it?
Kirves Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 yes thats what makes it terrible for todays standards Hmmm... I think just about any place where you might get jumped/robbed, is more like the medieval battle field than the cage. First of all, if nothing else, the assailant will have friends. That was so in the samurai wars, that is so on the streets and that is not the case in the cage. Second, the attacker and his pals, will all potentially have at least blade weapons or worse. That was so on samurai battles, and is so on the streets. Not so in the cage. Third, you can't control the surface you're attacked on. It will probably be uneven, maybe slippery, maybe littered, maybe confined, maybe full of who-knows-what stuff. That was so on battlefield, is so on the streets. Not so in the cage. Fourth, you won't find yourself fighting in the submission fighting shorts only, you may have jeans, boots, leather jacket and you may be carrying groceries, or heck maybe your own child in your arms. Your movement was encumbered on medieval battlefields and may be encumbered on the streets. You won't have these things to consider in the cage either. Fifth, it may be very dark when you're attacked on the streets. It was often dark when the samurai had to fight. It is never dark in the cage. I humbly believe that if you prepare yourself like you were going to medieval war, you are better off on the street than if you prepare yourself for the cage only. Of course a mixture would be better, but if we keep this black'n'white, then my bets are on TMA. PS. Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu is technically just about the same as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
LOILOI44 Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 Excellent points Kirves. Good examples of how enviornment can dictate techniques.
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