jiu-jitsu fighter Posted February 11, 2003 Posted February 11, 2003 when was this pride 13?thats the last time i saw them fight, ya what happened to the brazilian killer, sak got his face rearranged "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
Dr.Worstcase Posted February 12, 2003 Posted February 12, 2003 Ok, I have been reading this little debate and decide to express an opinion. First, from what I see here I find it hard to belive that any of you have been in more than 4 or 5 street fights, or ever a seen a real deal street thug in action. I know most of you are support the cross training theory, you are absoulutley right. If you think you can block a sucker punch then spin it into some BS armbar in the middle of a club or crowd,, well you've never been there. Street fights do not set up in a toe to toe fashion, very likely you will be hit in the back of the head or blindsided, in which case you can throw round house kicks all you want after you get out of the hospital. All of the good street fighters I have seen will almost always ground their opponents, whether they were attacked or not, I will explain why. 1: in case of a sucker punch, if you have not been KO'ed the best responce is to bring the arms up to gaurd the head from another attack and pull your assailant into a clutch, if you know what your doing from there,it's cake to toss somone who dosen't know whats going on, from there they will be kicked into heaven, 2 If the thug has a target the best trick in the whole world is to walk up to them and chin jab with an open palm and ground them, then kick kick kick. Now imagine you are the guy who messed up your offensive attack, or the guy who was victimized, if you know some BJJ or the like your survival chances just went through the roof, in the first case instead of just being tossed down and boot sauced, you will very likely be able to bring him down with you then snap crackle pop, and leave. If you have been sucker punched and are already on the ground you will know how to bring him to you or how to execute attacks from the ground. MA has to be real world for real people, we go to the clubs we drink, we do not always have maximum balance or power or speed, what is important is being dynamic and having a responce for all possible contingencys, to say my master can kick your masters ass is the height of immaturity, I can beat anyone in the whole world if they aren't looking and I have a beer bottle or bat or heavey cup or a good leather belt or a good silk shirt or or or or or,, you get it. Check out dogbrothers for instance, I challange anyone to take them on unarmed, and even if you do manage to get inside their striking range SUPRISE,,,BJJ! I'm Done. P.S. as to ancient ground based martial arts check out pentjak silat JFDI
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted February 12, 2003 Posted February 12, 2003 PST PST, DR.WORSTCASE MY SIFY/GURU/MASTER WAS AN ORIGINAL DOG BROTHER, HIS NAME IS PHILIP GELINAS AND HIS DOG NAME IS SLED DOG, i know plenty about them, but if your gonna bring up a point like that at least give these ppl an idea of what dog brothers are. its a weapons based art , but they train full contact all the time and for the unarmed they train, but are not limited to muay thai and bjj, "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
jeffin Posted February 12, 2003 Posted February 12, 2003 Dr owrstcase try to space out your writing abit more that wasa very unclear post - are you advocating MMA? pete The superior man is modest in his speech, but excels in his actions.Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)Crosstraining in bjj/silat/muaythai/jkd/JJJ/kickboxing
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted February 13, 2003 Posted February 13, 2003 ya very hard to read make paragraphs next time "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
Beer-monster Posted March 7, 2003 Posted March 7, 2003 This is an opinion. Hm Brazilian ju-jitsu effective. Obviously, but like all arts it has its limits. Ground fighting in self defense is flawed in the case of multiple opponents. This is not just a TMA excuse, as I watched my friend get stitched up after recieving a jagged piece of glass to his face. He had been on the ground with the other guy, in the mount, and in all other respects winning, until the glass. However I do not think it is the fault of the art, merely the recent public interpretation of it. UFC, Pride and such have turned most BJJ fighters (not all!) away from the brutal realaities of the street. In the cage its just you and the opponent, in the street you're not so lucky. Surely in a self defense secenario you're priority is to defend and then escape, not the total destruction of the enemy. If the fight ends up on the ground, surely groundfighting should be used to the extent that you are free to stand up again and run off. But most BJJ,MMA and such arts are now more focussed on pinning or locking the enemy so that you can beat 9 shades of S**t out of him, consequently inviting a boot to the head or knife to the throat from his mates. Knowledge of Groundfighting is a must in case you go to the floor, but the approach of most grappling styles that is promoted of UFC tournaments in my opinion is not the way to use it. I cannot admit to have studied BJJ personally although I would like to, however surely the techniques can be used to escape ground fighting and then flee, rather than dominate the floor. Would this not be the most street effective use of BJJ? Also I would also like to say it is not just BJJ and Vale Tudo that has had its vision blinkered by sports. I usually refuse to take part in Karate competitions and they make a person focus more on earning points with flashy technique and not defence. Also in regards to the 90% of fights go to the floor stat. It is probably true but most if not nearly all of those fights did not include martial artists. Surely with training and a knowledge of how fights work we can avoid being pulled to the ground (unless we wants to in the case of good grapplers), otherwise what would be the point of training at all? One of the best ways of doing this (and that I have used successfully) is to maintain a reasonable distance with what Fighting expert Geoff Thomson calls the Fence. It won't work all the time (but what does?). A trained grappler will still take you to the floor if he wants to (but then again a trained martial artist should be more 'enlightened' as to want to start a fight anyway). Hope this doesn't p*ss of to many people. Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
Kirves Posted March 7, 2003 Posted March 7, 2003 100% of all fights start standing up. Nah. Maybe 90 or even 95 %, but not 100%.
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted March 9, 2003 Posted March 9, 2003 ROYLER GRACIE is an example of someone that teaches bjj for self-defense, royce and helio are a few others, alot of people thought teach sport jj and thats fine but its not too good on the street. now vale tudo jiu-jitsu is better but has flaws, but so does every art, bjj does not say go to the ground all the time, it says finish the fight as quickly as possible anf this is done by using a submission or a choke, brazilian jiu-jitsu is a.k.a. "the gentle art" does not really incorporate striking but some schools do. and so my point is of course they go to the ground, they're in a matted cage with a ref, also bjj is not blinkered by sports any more than tkd,judo,karate, etc.... its competions are fierce and promote growth as a martial artist. jiu-jitsu is good on the street and in the ring but most people only see one side of it, today i went to a FABIO HOLANDA seminar (brazilian top team) and he showed us vale tudo techniques and sport techniques. "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
mikelw Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Chang.... ergh.... i swear if i wasn't a sensei on this board.... I'm not gonna have a long winded response cos i'm really sick of saying the same thing over and over again to someone who has obviously made up their mind before trying an art. Rickson Gracie, of Gracie Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a master in action. He is literally a master. I think he's 7th dan or something. He has never been defeated with his style. Nobody has even come close to it before. I'm not for one style or the other... oh bugger it, whatever i write won't change your closed mind. >too annoyed to sign off my name as a courtesy< Hey, have you ever heard of a man named Masutatsu Oyama?? He was the founder of Kyukoshinkai karate and basically. . . he kicked ass. The guy did exhibition matches with Anyone (including heavyweight boxing champs and grapplers) and. . . he kicked their asses. he also killed a bull with his hands. Point is, if you're strong enough, fast enough, and skilled enough at stand up fighting, unless you want to go the ground, you're not going to.
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