regarding "99% of fights end on the ground" theory

[Kensai]

To be honest, I dont think the japanese see it as a slap in the face. Mainly because they appericate the budo aspects to their particular arts. As we know Judo has had its fair number of victories over BJJ. And lastly BJJ is more less Japanese, as the techniques that the Gracies have refined are from Judo and Kito Ryu Jujutsu (The HEAVY ground work aspect).

 

I do agree that weapons are a mute issue, and hand to hand skill is the most important.

 

As I have heard the Gracies say many times on interviews in the Aikido Journel, NHB/UFC is no reflection of real combat and BJJ has evloved from the streets of the Falavas (shanty towns). If you really wanna test your art, you really have to go onto the streets. Which is something I am not perpared to do, I like my face the way it is.

[Kirves]

I do agree that weapons are a mute issue, and hand to hand skill is the most important.

 

I don't think they are "a mute issue". If half of my training is for using and/or defending against weapons, then I don't like someone coming to me saying my style is bad because he can beat me unarmed in a ring. Just as I don't go to a BJJ school with sticks saying that their art sucks if they won't beat me in a stickfight.

[Kensai]

Look at my signiture, I dont do BJJ.

 

But the UFC was set up to "test" unarmed ability.

 

To be able to handle a weapon well you must first be able to handle yourself well. So you must be as good at weapons as you are unarmed.

 

If you cant handle yourself against a BJJ player in unarmed combat, then you are not as good as he/she is. Simple. There is not point hiding behind weapons and making them an issue in what quite clearly is an unarmed combat competition.

 

Sorry to side with the BJJers on this one Kirves, all your posts thus far I have been 100% behind.

[Kirves]

Notice: This is one loooong post. If you aren't that interested, spare yourself from my inability to express myself in a more brief manner . There isn't much new to this thread in this post, just clarifying my point of view a bit more.

Look at my signiture, I dont do BJJ.

 

I never said you did, I just pointed out that I think weapons are part of this.

But the UFC was set up to "test" unarmed ability.

 

Exactly. Now, I have done apprx. two years of kali/escrima in the past. For someone to say that BJJ is the best art unless I go to UFC and prove I'm better than them is ridiculous. My training in kali/escrima was over 50% weaponry. In traditional jujutsu weapons often get less than 50% focus but they still are part of it. How about someone who studies kendo, or iaido? Do you agree that BJJ is superior to Kendo unless the Kendo guy goes to UFC unarmed and proves that he can beat BJJ practitioner? Ridiculous. Apples and oranges.

To be able to handle a weapon well you must first be able to handle yourself well. So you must be as good at weapons as you are unarmed.

 

Hmmm... In kali/escrima I was told that I need to become good with the weapon first, before I can try the same without it (and in my experience, that worked better than if I tried some new kali technique unarmed first). It is always a bad idea to think every art is done the same way your own is (I know, that in Aikido the unarmed basics are usually learned first). And how do you apply your argument to kendo? Iaido? Bojutsu?

If you cant handle yourself against a BJJ player in unarmed combat, then you are not as good as he/she is. Simple.

 

You forget the whole point. Yes, if I can't handle myself against a BJJ player in unarmed combat (with rules), then I am worse than him in unarmed combat (with rules). I am not studying to become the best in unarmed combat though, that's where the difference lies. I am studying how to become a better fighter. There's a difference. I study the use and improvisation of weapons. I study unarmed defences against weapons. I study mass attack defences. I study first aid. That's not the same as studying for a BJJ contest (BTW: have you looked at the rules in BJJ tournament?).

There is not point hiding behind weapons and making them an issue in what quite clearly is an unarmed combat competition.

 

Again, my point was about BJJ students claiming that TMA is inferior. TMA is usually about weapons. Traditional Jujutsu is for sure. Now you try to take that away from the art and then compare them? I know a BJJ club about a 100km from my town. They have two hour classes every night. For those who do competitions, they also have morning classes. That means the best of them train 4 hours a day just to beat others in tournaments. I train apprx. 8 hours a week and over half of it is TMA weapons training. Now are you sure that if I can't beat a BJJ student who trains more in a month than I do in a year, in an unarmed combat, it is proof that my art is inferior? Or could it possibly anyhow be that I don't have the interest to train unarmed combat as much as he does so he as a BJJ/UFC/NHB person is better than I am, but not necessarily prove that his art is in general better than mine?

 

I do think though that we are losing focus here a bit. Especially with this weapons stuff, but weapons are a huge part of the big picture.

 

What was the question?

 

The question was :"Why don't TMA people go to Vale Tudo tournaments?".

 

The answer TMA people give is: "We aren't interested, we study 10h a week and of that time we want to spare for unarmed stuff, sword stuff, staff stuff, shuriken stuff, naginata stuff, heiho (strategy for more than one-on-one fights) and so on. We obviously don't have the time or the interest to train unarmed stuff so much we could even compete."

 

The reply from Vale Tudo people is: "BS. You are just afraid you would loose, because you know your art is inferior."

 

And my point remains: the fact that TMA people decide to devote their time to different stuff, is no proof that either

 

A) TMA unarmed methods are inferior to BJJ unarmed methods, given that they are trained as intensely and immensely by equally talented students.

 

B) TMA fighter would loose to BJJ student in a absolutely-no-rules-no-referee fight.

 

There just arent any such people around who'd have trained TMA unarmed methods professionally for a decade or two so they could go and test it against those who have wrestled professionally for that time period. Anyone interested in UFC takes another route from the beginning and thus I don't think we'll see many TMA people in UFC in the future either.

[magikchiongson]

I think the obvious answer as to why TMAs don't compete in NHB, is the same reason why Royce Gracie wouldn't fight Sakuraba unless certain rules and requirements were met.

 

Also, grapplers/mma training is intense and they spend much much more time training and perfecting their skills than your common Martial Artists who shows up 2x a week to train.

 

MMA/Grapplers, train harder, usually the've been in that type of competition since Middle School Greco/Roman Wrestling. Most of the tactics are simple and sound, and I can't stress this enough, very natural. The more natural you're movement is the more likely you will pull it off in a adrenaline rushed situation.

 

But when its all said and done, I want to see more TMA people in America compete in these sports to refine the techniques of their respective Arts.

 

That's the closest thing you will find here in testing your Arts.

[Kirves]

Magikchiongson, exactly my point. The problem is, if you want to try TMA in a Vale Tudo event, where can you find a club that trains you for it? Nowhere! If I want to go to UFC, my choice would be BJJ, Shootfighting, MMA, or similar school, because they have the training, they have several classes for it everyday, they incorporate the rules in their everyday training, they have the equipment, the experience. If you go to a TMA club, you may get everyday class of 1-2 hours if you're lucky. And those 1-2 hours of training will not concentrate on fighting with the tournament rules, nor does the club and it's instructors have the experience of such an ordeal. You'd be considered fool if you went there and asked for such training.

 

We'll see some TMA artists win these events when someone with the required expertise of coaching for these events, the facilities and the time, starts to do just that. But as long as everyone interested in those tournaments just opt for the MMA club instead, we won't be seeing it.

 

The TMA aren't some silver bullet which would allow someone with 2 hours of daily training to suddenly become better fighter than the Gracies. Can't reasonably expect that to happen. And that is what the BJJ enthusiasts should understand.

[Kensai]

I dont think all BJJers think that way, although perhaps some do. I know some Aikidoka think that ALL other MA both Modern and Traditional are ugly and graceless. (I was one of these people). However, only when you fight your own ignorance do you really start to understand the true mean of Martial arts. After all we are only human, and people can have their opinions on different styles.

 

To be honest, I think having this "my style is better" attitude can be a good thing. When it come down to the crunch, the last thing you want on your mind is doubt.

 

Oh and after reading your lengthy reply Kirves, I do agree again.

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

i agreee with all of you and , i train 4 times a week and am ready and willing to prove myself in the ucc , https://www.ucczone.ca, but thats not the point, in my class my sifu/sigung/guro allows those interested to participate in his kali class afterwards (optional) to do some weapons traing, im am not interested though

 

i did something to try and understand how traidtional martial arts really work, i learned a jujitsu lock set that my sifu/guro/sigung, learned a long time ago from sifu adriano emperado(founder of kajukenbo) and it was really cool, so i might start including pieces of it into my bjj

[jeffin]

Kirves.

 

Throw in weapons and its a whole different idea eh?

 

So your good with sticks or knives or staff, would it beat my ak74 or glock? Do you see how ridiculous that premise is. These competitions are about unarmed combat and either you can step up to a MMA fighter and take him on with your fists or you can't. If you can't then maybey you should ask questions about your art and your training.

 

pete,

[Kirves]

So your good with sticks or knives or staff, would it beat my ak74 or glock? Do you see how ridiculous that premise is.

 

No, it is not ridiculous. That is actually the whole point.

 

Let's assume you are into guns and the firing range, okay? Let's assume I'm into stick and knife fighting, okay? Let's assume person X is into unarmed fighting, okay? Um, let's assume Y is into BJJ tournaments, okay?

 

Now, why would the BJJ guy go to the guy who's into guns, say that guns are worth nothing, unless he can beat the BJJ guy unarmed in a ring? Now, that would be ridiculous. The gun guy isn't interested in BJJ, he's interested in guns. So, now the BJJ guy starts saying, that's BS, you are just afraid you'd lose. The gun guy again says, sorry I don't train that stuff because I don't care, I like guns and I like to train with them. Then BJJ guy goes to a magazine journalist and gives an interview saying all gun enthusiasts are cowards because they don't go to UFC. As already pointed about two dozen posts ago, the guy isn't interested in that stuff!

 

Someone is into collecting stamps. He is not interested in UFC. Someone is interested in V12 engines, not the UFC. Someone is interested in traditional samurai warrior arts, not the UFC. It doesn't make a difference where his interests lie, if he's not interested in training for the UFC, then the BJJ guys shouldn't harass him about it.