regarding "99% of fights end on the ground" theory

[ChangWuJi]

I think it basically started with this UFC nonsense. The reason why I say nonsense, is because the UFC was populated by so called "experts" in the field of martial arts. Needless to say, these guys showed no technique, balance, speed, or anything that would normally represent years of quality instruction. These buffoons were labeled as "experts in traditional MA" when in fact these guys where any thing but. Naturally, out of the wood work comes these various characters bemoaning how out of date and useless "traditional" arts are and how they, some how discovered what more than an accumalative of over 5000 years of fighting history and experience has not. Never mind the fact that a person has but so many ways to attack you. But, according to these guys, something very dramatic must have occurred during the early ninties that has rendered techniques that have proven themselves in both personal combat and all out melee situations on battlefields absolutely useless.

 

Using the UFC and other farces as the standard for self defence they go about convincing people, mostly young men to believe in their primitve( and often laughable techniques) or such fallacies like :"99% of fights go to the ground" (if was true, then basically all martial arts would be based on ground fighting and there would be almost no reason to learn proper balance and foot work).

 

I think this was bound to happen sooner or later. 1.) Because scam artist show up in just about any endeavor. 2.) There are a lot of people precieved as experts in MA and really have no skill at all. And just like with anything esle.....people will allways pay much more attention to the negative than to the positive.

 

For one I have been in situations (more than I care to admit) were I have witnessed and been involved violent confrontations and very rarely have I seen people fall to the ground unless knocked there, and if knocked there never have I a seen anybody with half a brain actively dive down there with them, or if they had both fallen, at least not make an attempt to get back on their feet. This is real life, not some ridiculous sideshow with bunch or wrestlers claiming their vaunted superiority over some clowns flailing about the ring calling themselves 'experts'. I saw no footwork, I saw no fluidity, I saw no tenacity...and these are things that I often found in skilled street fighters, let alone these jokers. I have had enough experience to know a skilled fighter in action when I see one.

 

Just because some guy signs the line as a blackbelt, does that make him an expert? Does that make him capable of taking care of himself if he finds himself in a violent confrontation? Absolutely not. Futhermore, it doesnt even really guarantee that he is a 'blackbelt' at all, infact I fail to see what being given a blackblet by someone who is probably recieving money for your advancement proves at all.

 

Oh, and one more thing.....In earlier times, and even today....you did not have the luxury of establishing what could and could not be done as you do with NHB or any fighting tournament that is held these days. You did not have the luxury of being able to tap out or being secure in the knowledge that your opponent would not grab and savagely wrench your testicles or lips, or hook and viciously tear at your nostrils when your decide that you are going to wrestle him to "death". This stuff is okay for sport....but I for one, if told by some guy that I should become his sicofant diciple because he won alot of fights by rolling around on the ground with some guy who didnt know what in the hell he was doing by rolling around on a padded mat, will be sure to take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

[Angus]

Heh, obviously an angry and uneducated person. Look, i guess what u were trying to say in that ramble is that u don't like ground fighting. The 1900's saw a massive change in the world - cultures blended and things have changed. Arts such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu came on the scene and rocked the martial arts world. Quite simply put, if u don't know what you're doing on the ground then u have less chance to save your life.

 

Traditional arts have their place, but i think things such as katas/forms/poomses are out of date and have no place in serious self defence. THINK!! What if, on the odd chance, some guy tackles u from behind or something, just bare with me. What if u end up on the ground and this guy's trying to break your neck? A hell of a lot of good your standing-up fighting will do then huh!?!?

 

Basically, it all comes back to crosstraining. Grappling and Striking, u need to cover ur arse both ways. Take the UFC people like Coleman - he's awesome and hge just looks like he's brawling. Fighting isn't meant to look pretty, but u can look bad and be effective at the same time dude. Take Rickson Gracie's 400 undefeated fights (that's Vale Tudo, NHB, and REAL STREET FIGHTS AND LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS). Rickson is arguably the best fighter in the world and the only thing he does is Gracie Jiu Jitsu (BJJ).

 

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks dude, but don't close your mind to new things. Grappling is effective and very real and deadly. It's true that few fights are finished on the ground, but it can happen, and does happen that two people wrestle each other to the ground and go hell for leather.

 

It's the truth, and it hurts some people. Not my fault that i like to see the truth

 

Angus

 

 

[hanksohn]

None of the NHB people I know claim that NHB fighting is 'real streetfighting'. But it is the closest thing that we have at this point. Certainly there are things I might do in an NHB fight that I wouldn't do on the street. Same is true in sparring. Any time you establish rules/limitations people will play to those.

 

As to the notions that fights will go to the ground. It depends on whther the participants want it to go there. If both parties like to fight standing which most untrained people do, then it will stay there. So lots of fights don't go to the ground but if someone wants it to go there, it probably will. And what NHB proved is if it goes to the ground and you don't know what you are doing there, you're done.

 

Also, for all the moaning I've heard about UFC and other events, I've never seen the counterarguments backed up. Call out NHB fighters on the street and have someone tape it. The BJJ guys step into the ring with fighters out for blood. Skilled professionals. And they proved the validity of their art. I've seen a lot of traditionalists in forums, making claims about what they've seen, what will work 'on the streets' and what won't. Back it up. Get video of it.

 

I like kicking and punching; I like trapping; I like forms. I will always train a traditional style. I also crosstrain. Rolling is tons of fun and an excellent workout. Plus until someone shows me a high percentage move for stopping all possible takedowns, I am not going to rule out the possibility of a fight going there.

 

And if you do rule it out, I hope and pray you never find yourself there. It's seriously scary if you don't know what you're doing.

[Singularity]

In reference to all fights ending up on the ground, 99% is an exaggeration. I do however agree with Angus for the most part. The amount of fights that do end up on the ground is NOT negligible. However, stand-up martial arts are just as essential if one is training for self-defense. Where the fight ends up truly does depend on the fighters. In the earlier days of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean martial arts, there were some sweet secrets. However, a lot of these styles have become diluted. Even a high-ranked black belt may not know the older secrets that made the masters so effective. A lot of these older styles leave a bitter taste in people's mouths. I've gone through several dojos, disliking most of them after 5 months. I train first and foremost to learn how to protect myself. I didn't want to learn katas, or forms, or sword fighting. No, I wanted to learn simple techniques to increase my speed and power that would protect me in a fight situation. I feel I received it from a set of tapes I purchased, but I'm not soliciting here.

 

Fact remains that UFC and NHB are as close as we can get to a proving ground for martial arts. All we can do is try to harness the skills we are learning, and when it comes down to it, we'll see who's left standing and unhurt. And even that can depend more on the fighters, not the styles.

 

Dave

[ChangWuJi]

What do either of those videos prove? I could make a video of me kicking the crap out of everyone in my Aikido class, Kendo class, White Dragon class, AND Wu Shu class, but it wouldn't mean that "my style" is better than any of those I listed above.

 

What your videos show, quite simply, is that the BJJ practitioners, in those circumstances, could defeat their opponents. IN NO WAY does it prove in the slightest that BJJ is a "better style" than Judo or Capoeira.

 

I'm guessing you've never seen someone with a high degree of skill perform moves either, it's not like you'll see on film, because film isn't fast enough (literally, there's a move in Enter the Dragon that HAD to be filmed in slow motion because it happened faster than the cameras could capture at normal speed)

 

And you still don't understand why something that takes 40 seconds to take effect is not EFFECTIVE, because it traps YOU, and endangers your life.

 

You've never seen a real master of a martial art enter a tournament, because a true master would never seek out conflict, but if you saw someone try to threaten a master's life with one of your grappling heavy arts, they would likely be dead before they got a grapple in. (hell, they would against someone with armed forces training, that's brutally effective, and is designed for life or death situations)

 

 

 

Just another hint: If you are skilled you can escape any joint lock _before_ it makes you immovable, while, if someone hits with a full-body strike to the head, it's over.

 

This is the difference between movie and reality.

 

 

[Kungfuwoo]

Well, I'm here to lend my two cents to this all. On the street or wherever, you won't know how the fight will start or how it will end. However, most people know how to punch and/or kick. However, most people don't know how to grapple/or know how to submission wrestle. This is where grappling comes in handy. However, if you are proficient at stand up fighting, you can still win a fight. I guess it just comes up to what happens in a fight and you ALWAYS have to adjust.

 

Oh, and I just passed my Kuk Sool Won yellow belt test with flyin colors

[Angus]

Chang.... ergh.... i swear if i wasn't a sensei on this board.... I'm not gonna have a long winded response cos i'm really sick of saying the same thing over and over again to someone who has obviously made up their mind before trying an art.

 

Rickson Gracie, of Gracie Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a master in action. He is literally a master. I think he's 7th dan or something. He has never been defeated with his style. Nobody has even come close to it before.

 

I'm not for one style or the other... oh bugger it, whatever i write won't change your closed mind.

 

>too annoyed to sign off my name as a courtesy<

[SBN Doug]

On a lighter note,

 

Congradulations Kungfuwoo.

 

Keep those two P's in mind, and you'll be to black in (what will seem like) no time.

[hanksohn]

It still amazes me the number of people that spout this stuff. Empirical evidence to the contrary and they still cling to their positions. "A true master would not enter a competition" "If you tried to shoot in, a well rooted punch to the face would stop you." "BJJ is no good against multiple opponents." "My style won't compete in these tournaments because our effective techniques are fatal."

 

And btw, ChangWuJi, I never said BJJ was a better style but it certainly has its place.

 

And yes, I've seen real masters perform(you can argue Dan Inosanto doesn't know his stuff but I'll just laugh at you) and the masters I've worked with have all acknowledged the strengths of BJJ. In fact, Inosanto put on a BJJ white belt after training for over 35 years.

 

I also respect people who acknowledge BJJ and then say it's not for them. But to say, oh that'll never work against a true master... thanks for your opinion. Because until you prove it in some fashion, that's all it is. And everyone's got one. I'll go with the ones that have been backed up. Which are: If you don't crosstrain, you better pray you never face someone who has.

 

My instructor has better speed and rooting than I do. Better kicks. Better footwork. And yet, if we spar and allow it to go to the ground, I consistently beat him because I crosstrain.(and my BJJ is weak at best but his is nonexistent) He knows his weakness and has started training takedown defenses harder but he has no interest in training BJJ. And that's cool. But he never says,"BJJ will never work." because he knows better. He's tried stuff out. And at least he knows what to avoid now.

 

And I still don't think BJJ is 'better' a number of the bjj students I train with can't get me to the ground because their stand-up game isn't good enough.

[hanksohn]

'Just another hint: If you are skilled you can escape any joint lock _before_ it makes you immovable, while, if someone hits with a full-body strike to the head, it's over.

 

This is the difference between movie and reality'

 

 

 

Yes it is. And unfortunately you are quoting the movie position not the reality. Punches and kicks to the head make better footage than a flying armbar. And people have proven time and time again, that one shot to the head may end it but it's not a high percentage move.

 

Also as to escaping a joint lock. True enough but a lot of the escapes just set up other locks.

 

Why am I still talking? Angus, I'm with you. This guy'll never learn. This is one of those guys that even if he ever did roll with someone and end up folded like a pretzel, he wouldn't get it.