karate philosophy VS. female vanity.

[k4karate]

okay, i'm going to clarify this one last time, you can believe me if you want or you can chose to believe otherwise.

 

i've gotten this reaction from 2 other white belts who have also recently started, not the whole dojo, remember, i train with all newcomers.

 

i rarely speak within the dojo, just my "hellos" and bows, "my name is", "i'm having trouble can you help me?"

 

i don't know where cloud dragon got the idea that i was trying too hard to make friends, i really only speak when i'm having trouble or i'm spoken to by others.

 

i assure you, i am not creating a spectacle or doing my own thing.

 

if you read my first posting, this thread was about whether or not it is a good idea to keep my make-up on in class, NOT how can i make more friends and attract a mate at my dojo? Luckyboxer also goes on to say that i am rude. i started this thread because i wanted to be considerate and find out the proper ettiquette for adronment(in this case make-up) inside the dojo.

 

however, Luckyboxer just illustrated some of the assumptions and stereotypes i have faced by these "snobby" students by calling me rude, inconsiderate, a non-serious student who wants to create a spectacle and expects everyone else to adapt to me.

 

all i did was ask a simple question: "make-up, nay or yay?"

 

you don't know any of these negative things to be true, but you assume it is because i wear make-up to class and a couple students like to be rude to me, therefore i am not a hard working student new to karate. to you i'm just another girl who chose the dojo to play the dating game or turn upside-down with my apparent unruly behaviour. isn't it fair to say that one of the first things you learn in karate is not to judge others, make assumptions or criticize others? and what makes you think that these students who give me a hard time are hard working, serious karate students?

[markusan]

Hi k4. I think you're getting a bit of a negative vibe here, it's interesting. As someone who's trained for a few years it's unusual to see women students with noticeable makeup on, though certainly not unheard of. In most classes I'm involved in there's a lot of sweating involved so it may not be so practical. I think the resistance you'rr feeling maybe merely because it's not the norm, not just in martial arts, but in most sports not to wear makeup.

 

Hey I'm a guy and i comb my hair and brush my teeth before class having been on the receiving end of the dog-breath-in- the-clinches syndrome.

 

And Kamiya, I agree with you!

First of all, if a woman is attractive, guys are going to check her out, makeup or no makeup. I really think makeup has very little to do with what guys find attractive, in fact many guys find LESS makeup more attractive. And if a girl in the dojo has a nice figure, well forget it. What's she supposed to to, gain 30 pounds and get surgery to make her face unattractive just to stop boys in the dojo from checking her out?

 

From an observer's point of view...and I've been wrong before...but women seem to me to dress and mak-up to impress other women not us poor saps.

[aefibird]

Well, to be honest, if the reaction that you're getting is from other new students then ignore it.

 

However, if it is from higher grade students or Sempai's then that's more of a problem.

 

 

 

If in doubt about anything then have a chat with your instructor. He/She will be the best person to advise you.

[Kamiya]

Thanks, markusan.

 

I agree with you, aefi. I've been arguing that wearing makeup isn't a big deal, but if a Sempai or the Sensei of my school were to approach me and ask me not to wear it, I would stop immediately, no questions asked.

 

Until then, I don't see it as a problem.

 

(Side note: by all means I do not wear makeup every day. In fact, I'd say I DON'T the majority of days. I'm not wearing any right now, and I plan on going to the dojo right after work. More than anything it depends on how much time I have before leaving for work, and usually I'm rushing out the door and have no time for makeup.)

[Luckykboxer]

Ok I think I am going around in circles here, but ill address yoru comment about me calling you Rude and how seem to think i am at fault, I will also explain how i came to my conclusions using your own posts, as you seem to contradict yourself to make your point.

Luckyboxer just illustrated some of the assumptions and stereotypes i have faced by these "snobby" students by calling me rude, inconsiderate, a non-serious student who wants to create a spectacle and expects everyone else to adapt to me.

 

show me where i said you were any of these things? I never once accused of it. I stated my experiences based on a situation. If your situation is similar and you see a parallel then dont say that i called you those things, when you pulled it out and made that comparison on your own.

 

now lets look at what you said...

i chose to enter it hoping i could better understand myself and improve my mental outlook.

 

i do believe that i am in good company at my dojo (many students show hard work and dedication), however, i feel like an outsider because i know most of the students feel as though i am nothing more than a vain female who wants to take part in karate simply as a novelty.

 

. i am struggling to re-evaluate my priorities and goals, and chose karate to help me with this. i notice that the other female students are not this way, they do not focus so much on there apperence. i've always been thought to take pride in what i look like, but does this go against the philosophies taught in karate? is it really so important that i change my mind set on beauty in order to focus more on my art form?

 

Ok looking at these portions from your very first post.

 

first off you made more then one comment about wanting to change your mindset, or way of thinking.

 

second you stated you felt the students were good students.

 

third you stated MOST... not some but most of the students have an issue with you. You stated you know why they have an issue with you. You state you are more concerned about looking and feeling beautiful then learning karate.

 

If i read this wrong please let me know because this is how i read this so far...

let me reasure you that my make-up is light

 

, i attend my classes right after work, so i'm always well groomed. but being new, i do feel subconcious about others judging me

 

you seemed to get a little defensive about our comments, and not only posted about the history behind you wanting to make yourself up, but then stated that you think North Americans think its Vain and you dont understand why you cant do it.... Even after people posted reasons why..

 

you either overlooked the reasons, or you wrote them off as invalid.

 

 

. i don't know alot of things so sometimes i have to ask about even the most basic things

 

i don't talk too much at the dojo, just my "hi" and small talk, so there isn't much certain students are judging me on besides my appearence.

 

questions are how we learn, its nto just in martial arts it is with everything, IF you dont talk much at the Dojo, that could be a reason you are not learning, or getting answers to your questions there.

 

I have to wonder if you are just being overly sensitive and because people are not approaching you that you are assuming they dont like you or have problems with you, or if you have even asked them.

 

If you ask someone or approach them they will probably tell you they have an issue, or they will say no. /shrug I know if i wanted to know I would sure ask, especially if it was creating an issue for me.

i would like to state again that my make-up is VERY light.

 

even after a hard 2 hours of class, nothing is running, and i don't wear eye-liner or mascara, just a little face powder for work.

 

since i am studying karate in north america and not japan, should i change the way i look and dress at my dojo to respect the less fashionable north american values of dedication?

 

Ok once again you seem to be really defensive about this.

 

You also insult not only the people you work out and train with, but all of us North Americans with this comment, I have to believe if it comes out here then I am pretty sure it is apparant at your dojo either in your comments, or facial expressions, or body language.

 

If you think you are training with trash, you are going to portray that and people will take offense to it.

 

I am offended by this comment, because you seem to think you are above North Americans and that we have an issue because we dont conform to your views of Beauty.

would like to know if this is true. as i've stated before, i am new to karate, so i don't know all of the rules.

 

Ask your instructor. That will end all of your problems and questions immediately. My school is different from Aefibirds and his is different from yours.... we cant answer the questions for your specific school as well as your instructor can..

 

Nobody on this board can.. I do however think the majority of this board seems to agree with the basics though.

as for the "snobs"

 

) how warm and friendly the other people at my dojo were, but obviously there are a few bad apples which are an exception

 

The only person from your Dojo that I am 100% certain has thrown out negative feelings for anyone else at your school is you. If everyone else is saying how good the people are, and you are the only one who seems to have an issue...... where should we draw the conclusion?

. i know one always has to deal with hostility everywhere, but is is difficult to concentrate on trianing hard when you know some of your classmates don't exactly want you there, especially when you are new. got any tips on staying alive? i would like to stay a full year at my dojo, i don't want to give up so quickly.

 

umm a couple things..

 

first - No most people do not have to deal with hostility in places they choose to be at. As a matter of fact most people choose not to go to places where they are in a hostile environment.

 

People have left many tips for staying alive as you put it, you seem to disregard them as i stated early. But based on the information you have posted yourself, and the way i interpretted it I think I have left comments that should give you an indication how to react or change or at least ask to find out what to do.

all i did was ask a simple question: "make-up, nay or yay?"

Umm.. no you didnt..

 

You could have easily made a simple post with those as two options in a Poll.

you don't know any of these negative things to be true, but you assume it is because i wear make-up to class and a couple students like to be rude to me, therefore i am not a hard working student new to karate. to you i'm just another girl who chose the dojo to play the dating game or turn upside-down with my apparent unruly behaviour. isn't it fair to say that one of the first things you learn in karate is not to judge others, make assumptions or criticize others? and what makes you think that these students who give me a hard time are hard working, serious karate students?

 

I did make assumptions based on what you posted, I have also explained why I made them. However I didnt state you were not hard working... or had unruly behavior or where playing the Dating game or any of the above.. I also think that no it is not fair to say that one of the first things you learn in karate is not to judge others, make assumptions, or criticize others.

 

Also You made me think that these students that gave you a hard time were hard working serious karate students based on teh quotes i have already provided.

 

I dont mind if you dont agree with what i have to say, I guarantee you wont be the first or the last.

 

But I do tend to get frustrated when people do not look at something with the approach of what is wrong..... rather then what is wrong with everyone else?

 

I think that if you want to change your mindset, and enjoy your training, and survive it, and remain long term, you are going to have to make some changes, or ask some questions, or maybe develop a thicker skin.

 

I really dont have any ill will towards you, I honestly would like to give you information based on my experiences that can help you.

 

I am a firm believer that Martial arts are an excellent activity for everyone.

 

I am also a Firm believer in everyone having to adapt to their surroundings and fit in.

 

I hope you are able to look at what i have posted as information to help you fit in as you wanted and not an outright attack on you.

 

Also if i misunderstood any of your posts please correct me and ill be the first one to restate my thoughts ont he new information.

 

Good luck and happy training

 

[Jussi Häkkinen]

I guess when I say "feminist" rant, what I really mean is defending a woman's right to wear or not wear makeup wherever she wants.

 

Who did make this kind of right? Be it anyone, it doesn't apply where I'm teaching or training. If my partner wears makeup, I switch the partner. If someone in my class wears makeup...well, she (or he) is free to decide, whether she (or he) removes it ASAP or skips the class that evening.

 

They have a freedom of choice. However, I make the choices.

 

And yes, it is a common rule that people don't wear make-up, wedding rings, other jewelry etc. when training. If they have a long hair, they use simple and soft means to tie it back. If one wears glasses, that's OK, but they should think about getting contact lenses. No fragrancies (for allergics).

 

When washing do-gi, the washing agent should be an unfragranced one (allergy thing, again). At the dojo, one should wash feet and hands before class.

 

It also doesn't hurt to take a shower and wash your teeth before heading to dojo.

 

Always wear a clean and tidy do-gi. Ironing does wonders here.

 

Just basic things.

[Kamiya]

I would agree with you that the rules of the dojo would override her rights, if she wants to train at that dojo. However, at least in my case, no one has informed me of such a rule, and so I continue to not see it as a big deal.

 

Mind you, I'm never deliberately wearing makeup to the dojo just because I CAN, or for the sake of exercising "my rights". Rather, I don't really think much of it at all. If I happen to put on makeup that day, it's still on me when I get to the dojo. If it's not, it's not. I never even considered it would be any kind of a problem until I saw this thread. ^_^

 

I never thought of it as a big deal, and it surprises me to see how much of a big deal it is to others.

[Drunken Monkey]

......i'm still confused over why a thread needed to be made about this.

 

while i appreciate that (almost) good debate has arisen, the simple answer,

 

and don't forget that what we face in our training with respect to rules etc may not be the same as what you face,

 

would be gotten by asking your sensei.

 

anyway.

 

ask yourself

 

why do you wish to wear make up?

 

or more precisely, why can't you remove the make up, especially if you know it to be a contentious issue?

 

(or is this the actual question you are asking?)

 

i don't see this to be any different to the kid who refuses to change into street clothes to go home two streets away,

 

even though there are thugs hanging around.

 

then he wonders why he gets picked on....

 

i remember something in karate about essence, about purity.

 

in the dojo, quan, training hall, i believe there should be no adornment.

 

there should be nothing to recall what/who we are outside those walls.

 

a banker can train with a police officer, a refuse collector, a carpenter, a pole dancer, a bodyguard or even a humble architecture student.

 

everyone is equal.

 

make up, like it or not sets you out,

 

not to mention it is an 'excess'.

 

think about the gi that you wear.

 

what does it mean?

 

what does it represent?

 

what does it say?

 

then think about whether or not make up fits in with the ideals of the gi.

[SaiFightsMS]

A thread was made because a newcomer to karate had a problem and was looking for a friendly bit of advice and some help.

 

Now please everyone let's keep things friendly and try to be helpful.

 

Many find the dojo to be a friendly home away from home but for some it is more of an adjustment than others.

 

At this point I see the makeup as less of an issue than just being friendly and getting used to people. Try saying a bit more to classmates and getting used to people. Not in an I'm looking for a guy way just in a freindly manner. And don't forget to smile at times.

[k4karate]

Luckyboxer stated....

 

 

there is a huge difference from an attractive woman working out in the Dojo, and a woman trying to attract others in the dojo.

 

From my experience, and i have seen both, I find it hard to believe that someone would get a hard time just because they were attractive and were trying to fit in. Most likely as I have seen firsthand in the past, if someone is getting a hard time its because they are doing their own thing and creating a spectacle and pulling attention from what it should be on.

 

I guess there is just too many selfish people in the world that are so worried about themselves that they cant bother themselves to think of others.

 

It is entirely different to walk into an established group of people and expect them to adapt to you.

 

 

i think your quote above states the proof to back up your hostility, Luckyboxer. you seem to think that there is only two ways to a situation. can't you open your mind for a minute and think, "there is a possible chance that k4karate has brushed paths with someone not so happy to be at the dojo."

 

and as for my quote about how i "feel" that MOST students feel that i am vain, that's called self consciousness, i did NOT say that most students DO think i am vain but that i FEEL most students might think that. why? because i am a new student who has alot to prove to the others at my dojo. everyone, should feel some sort of self consciousness when they first join a dojo and start karate, maybe you didn't because you feel you have all the answers. there are 300 students at my dojo, and yes i feel that most of them are hard working, i NEVER once stated that MOST have an issue with me. there is a big difference in thinking something, and knowing something as a fact.

 

yes, i do have areas where i would like to improve, and i want to change some aspects of my outlook and priorities, i felt that karate could help me work that process out. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ADMITTING THAT I AM NOT PERFECT AND WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.

 

if you think that all students should be confident perfect human beings, maybe you should look at changing your outlook and priorities Luckyboxer. at least i can admit and accept my shortcomings.

 

lastly, when you are saying that i don't ask enough questions, your right i don't...that's because i asked 1 simple question and got a snub from 2 of the girls i train with, they wouldn't even answer my question. if you read my other post, you would know this. i was defending a remark made that maybe i got that reaction because i socialize too much, which is obviously not the case at all.