Spotting McDojos

[Spaceman]

I've been meaning to put together an extensive list of several things McDojos tend to have in common... because there are a lot. It's a very formulaic and hard to miss thing.

 

I guess if a virus works and nothing stops it, it won't evolve.

 

Anyway, I'll go ahead and start the list. You can add your own observences, etc. since my source info isn't that great at present.

 

At present I'm in a suburb of Tulsa with a big local phonebook on my lap. In the "Martial Arts Instruction" section there are several big ads.

 

One's for Apollo's Karate, a pretty well-known Tulsa "dojo". They put out ads on TV, in print, etc. Quite ubiquitous, and quite McDojo. If you look at the site, it gives the message "Where Every Child is a Superstar!!!" -- that should set off a major alarm. Explore the site a bit. On the classes page, we learn that the kids' programs for 4-6 year olds is referred to as "ninjas".

 

The add in the phonebook has an American flag at around 20% transparency, waving. There's a fellow in a blue gi with a black belt with five yellow stripes on it, helping a grinning kid, who looks to be about four years old. He's correcting the kid's stance, while the kid stares at the camera grinning. The kid's in a red gi with a camo-print belt, black trim, and the name of the school on a logo on the left of his chest.

 

Above them is a little blurb that says "FREE Uniform Call Now!"

 

At the top of the add, insert clipart of a flying kick with red and blue streamers behind it.

 

voted Tulsa's best

 

Apollo's Karate

 

Master Instructor: Dale "Apollo" Cook

 

[badge reading "EZDefense / Turn Your Fear Into Power"]

 

[badge reading "Fitness / kickboxing"]

 

And then phone numbers for four different locations!

 

Here's the best part: in the bottom left corner is a rectangular area reading, "America's Best Karate Kid Program".

 

From this, we can gather a few things.

 

-- McDojos like to be patriotic, to get money and put out good-vibes, wholesome PR.

 

-- They appeal and go after kids... sort of like Joe Camel and Ronald McDonald.

 

-- They try to use people's fear.

 

-- Sometimes they are wildly successful and have lots of schools.

 

-- They don't say what kind of "karate" they teach, often.

 

-- They try to use the appeal of awards and media exposure/saturation.

 

-- Lots of stupid belt "colors" and meaningless ranks. What the hell is camo belt!?

 

-- Cardio kickboxing to lure the mom, too.

 

-- Freebies.

 

-- Gross, disgusting misuse of the word "ninja".

 

-- "Master Instructor"

 

If you're not already convulsing on the floor--you might not be, since some places take a lot more money for a lot less self esteem building, and some are dangerous--wait.

 

The Apollo's ad takes up half a page. The bottom half is occupied by a legit ad for a legit school, teaching silat, muay thai, and eskrima.

 

The other quarter is an ad for another McDojo, this one with the awesomely McDojotastic name, "Oklahoma Black Belt Academy".

 

"Excellence in Martial Arts for All Ages" it says. There's a little circular thing containing a Chinese-looking (can't say if it's real) character. If someone here can read Chinese, it's the one to the instructor's right in the photo on their site.

 

This has a picture of the instructor ("Master Instructor Jeremy McCaslin") kicking above his head (the same photo is on their site), with a transparent flag in the background. Below him is superimposed two kids, one punching and one blocking. "Discover The Champion In You!"

 

Really, this place follows the same formula as Apollo's. Advertisement, saturation, flags, ninjas, Master Instructors, cardio kickboxing, etc.

 

This one's situated inside Gold's Gym, rather than having its own building. Small-time operation.

 

There's a bulleted list of what they teach (all of this is quoted and said in context):

 

-- Karate

 

-- Tae Kwon Do

 

-- Kickboxing

 

-- Tulsa's Most Exciting Cardio-Kickboxing

 

Okay, so these are the sorts of things that are standard McDojo fare. "Karate" and "Tae Kwon Do" are very often just different isotopes of Mcdojonium. The kickboxing adds some degree of legitimacy in my eyes... maybe.

 

-- Free Uniform With All Programs

 

-- Self-Defense

 

So they might actually offer something that's worthwhile, unlike Apollo's.

 

-- Family Discounts

 

Bring all of them in! More money!

 

And then...

 

-- Law Enforcement Discounts

 

This made my jaw hit the ground. Are they trying to play the post-9/11 patriotism card? Or are they trying to say they have something worthwhile for law enforcement?

 

I hope they're just trying to get cops to dump their kids off there.

 

If they're trying to offer martial arts instruction for police officers, something's gravely wrong here.

 

The chance that police could be fed McDojo bullshit is absolutely disgusting and dangerous. A cop who was spoonfed such tripe would get himself killed.

[AngelaG]

The likelihood is that these places are McDojos, but personally I think that you cannot make a judgement unless you have actually gone in and trained with them. Maybe they just have someone who has studied PR doing their adverts?

 

Never judge a book by its cover.

[White Warlock]

You don't have to train with a group to recognize whether they're McDojos.

[AngelaG]

I'm sorry but I disagree that you can tell for certain whether a place is a McDojo from a tlephone directory listing or a website. You may get an idea but you cannot be certain.

 

Plus who are we to mock other people's ways?

[CloudDragon]

Spaceman, first off, welcome to the forums! I hope you stick around as you have a great writing style and its obvious you put alot of thought into your posts.

 

Have you trained with these schools yourself? From just what you show as your reasons that these schools are mcdojos, well it looks to me like slick marketing. After all, if the school doesn't make any money the doors won't stay open, and martial arts, especially in metro areas is a very competitive business.

 

Quite ubiquitous, and quite McDojo. If you look at the site, it gives the message "Where Every Child is a Superstar!!!" -- that should set off a major alarm.

 

Why? Making kids feel special can have a positive impact on their life. Take me for example, I was the fat kid, sucked at team sports, and was doing poorly in school. Martial arts along with guidance from my parents helped me lose over 100 lbs., find a sport that I was good at, and helped me gain the self discipline to be on the honor roll my last four years of school, and through college.

 

On the classes page, we learn that the kids' programs for 4-6 year olds is referred to as "ninjas".

 

This one is straight marketing, not that I agree with going out of your style for class names but most people who aren't martial artists don't know a ninja from a "numb-chuck". This doesn't make it right nor am I trying to justify it, just trying to explain it.

 

Above them is a little blurb that says "FREE Uniform Call Now!"

 

Good marketing, it's called "value added" if people can get more for their money they will at least check you out, plus people tend to shy away from things they don't know when a large cash outlay is required up front.

 

McDojos like to be patriotic, to get money and put out good-vibes, wholesome PR.

 

Well then I confess I am a human, walking, talking, mcdojo! Except for the money for patriotism part.

 

They appeal and go after kids... sort of like Joe Camel and Ronald McDonald.

 

They do, kids are the life's blood of martial arts, if you start something young you are more likely to stay with it for the rest of your life. It is like Joe Camel and Ronald McDonald, except they aren't promoting killing yourself with cigarettes and fatty food.

 

They try to use people's fear.

 

Most people get into martial arts because of fear of not being able to defend themselves or their family.

 

Sometimes they are wildly successful and have lots of schools.

 

As long as they provide quality instruction, what is wrong with that?

 

They don't say what kind of "karate" they teach, often.

 

Refer to the "ninja and 'numb-chucks'" comment. What style you teach usually has little to do with getting a new student. Experienced students however will want to know this but, are more likely to base their decision to join on what they see and hear in the school itself.

 

They try to use the appeal of awards and media exposure/saturation.

 

Word of mouth is your best advertisement, but you won't keep the doors open without media exposure, one way is when students earn awards, post it in the news paper.

 

Lots of stupid belt "colors" and meaningless ranks.

 

Although many people abuse this, and I totally understand where you are coming from on this one, however it can also be used to help with shot term goal setting, our society is the internet, drive thru, one hour photo society. We tend to see life as a race and not a journey, many of the schools who started this years ago did it to make the material easier to learn (smaller amounts) and to provide regular reinforcement for their training efforts. I don't always agree with it, but it is a sad commentary on our society today.

 

What the hell is camo belt!?

 

From what I understand, camo belt was first introduced by GM H.U. Lee of the American Taekwondo Association in the early 80's. It was added for reasons similar to those listed above.

 

Cardio kickboxing to lure the mom, too.

 

Value added. I also do cardio, it is not a martial art and the school where I take it does not in any way portray it that way, I feel it is great conditioning that helps me in my training as I hate stationary bikes and the like.

 

Freebies.

 

 

 

Freebies!!! What's wrong with that?

 

Gross, disgusting misuse of the word "ninja".

 

See related comment above regarding the "Little Ninja" classes. I don't agree with this, being truthful establishes trust and that is the foundation of the student instructor relationship.

 

"Master Instructor"

 

What is wrong with that? It is used to show an instructor of a certain rank. Or an instructor who trains other instructors, similar to a professor.

 

Some people like the flashy title and I will gladly refer to someone as Mr. Super-Cool Chief of all Badness if what they teach me is good. A title is as good as a belt, it's nothing unless you as a person can back it up. IOW don't get hung up on titles.

 

The Apollo's ad takes up half a page. The bottom half is occupied by a legit ad for a legit school, teaching silat, muay thai, and eskrima.

 

How do you know this school is legit? By your statement the mcdojo took up half a page and the legit school took up the other half, so wouldn't that make it rather mcdojoish in this aspect?

 

Really, this place follows the same formula as Apollo's. Advertisement, saturation, flags, ninjas, Master Instructors, cardio kickboxing, etc.

 

It is one of Apollos' students per the instructor profile.

 

This one's situated inside Gold's Gym, rather than having its own building. Small-time operation.

 

Every tree starts with a seed. And, according to your previous statements, since they are not wildly successful they probably aren't a mcdojo.

 

-- Family Discounts

 

Bring all of them in! More money!

 

And then...

 

-- Law Enforcement Discounts

 

I'm going out on a limb and assuming you are not a parent and not a cop because these are two types of people who usually struggle with money or don't get paid enough for what they do. It is good marketing to give these discounts. If they are giving discounts doesn't that contradict the mcdojoish tendency to squeeze the student for every penny?

 

My personal "red flag" is a locked in long term contract, if you have to sign a multiple year contract within 3 months of joining you need to watch out. On that note I called Mr. McCaslin at the Oklahoma Black Belt Academy and just asked him about contracts. He explained that the contracts he uses are 1 or 3 year contracts and they are not "hard nose" about enforcing them i.e.: you move away and the like. From what I understand there is also a monthly option. I think that we as martial artists have enough bad press from people who don't know about martial arts in general. We don't need to add to it ourselves by labeling each other, let the individual decide what they want.

 

Thank you Spaceman for such an interesting and thought out post. I hope you take my opinions and thoughts with the same consideration that I have taken yours, this is in no way meant to be a personal attack on you, your knowledge or intellgence, as it it obvious that you have both. I just used this post as a general rebuttal to the sometimes too often used stamp of "mcdojo"

[Rich67]

The reference to a "McDojo" is a generic, "cookie-cutter" style dojo that caters to people who take karate for exercise purposes or for children's entertainment with no real basis as to style or actual effectiveness as to self-defense properties. Spaceman is simply pointing out that the way some of these dojos advertise lends creedence to the fact that they are simply dime-a-dozen training places that are nothing truly special for the "hard core" martial artist. Is there anything technically wrong with them? No. I think that any exposure to martial arts is a wonderful thing for men, women, and children. I started my training at what might be perceived as a Mc Dojo. I think (and I may be misinterpeting his true direction) that he is simply trying to categorize these places so that more seasoned martial artists may be able to identify these places by simply looking through the yellow pages or watching a TV ad, and possibly steer away from them so they can focus on more of the adult-geared hardcore dojos. I personally would have no interest in going to a McDojo now, knowing what I know and as far in my training as I am. But I would be more than happy to take my kids to them and have them train, or let my wife get exposure to the arts. I have no problem with them. But I do have a problem with offering things such as "camo belts", letting kids wear off-color gi's when they are fresh off the street, etc. Call me old fashioned, but I feel that everyone needs to wear traditional white gi's until they attain black belt or red, and stick to traditional belt colors. This is just MY opinion. This isn't to say that stuff like that doesn't work in some dojos. It all depends on the sensei. The best training I ever got was in a non air-conditioned run-down converted garage with no bells and whistles. I learned more there in a couple years than I ever did in my old "McDojo". But the McDojo gave me a good basis for my later training, and I never regretted going there.

 

He isn't knocking the McDojo. It's just not "for him". If you want to get into shape, get a good workout, get your kids disciplined and teach them self-defense basics, then by all means-sign up.

[Luckykboxer]

I have to say that the observations in main post here are disturbing and appear to be more of a comedy sketch attempt then a valid attempt to help find McDojos..

 

First off lets see what experience you have with this school and its credentials?

 

I saw none other then your overwhelming dislike for the adds.

 

I think your attempt at being funny clouded your judgement and as it is apparant you tried to put thought in your post you didnt put the right kind of thought.

 

as in what are the important questions to ask about a school to determine its a mcdojo...

 

is being patriotic solely a mcdojo trait?

 

Highly unlikely, most schools are going to be patriotis, otherwise they will have some kind of undertones of discontent which leads to problems..

 

is advertising specials for different groups of peopel a Mcdojo?

 

No, its called advertising, and i have yet to see where a great martial arts studio has to be seperated from a great advertising campaign.

 

is stating your schools awards in advertising a sign of McDojos?

 

Well if they make up the quotes then quite possibly, but if the school was voted by a panel from say the better business bureau, or the chamber of commerce... then no its called smart advertising, listing awards for your school from outside sources.

 

lets hit your list directly...

From this, we can gather a few things.

 

-- McDojos like to be patriotic, to get money and put out good-vibes, wholesome PR.

 

-- They appeal and go after kids... sort of like Joe Camel and Ronald McDonald.

 

-- They try to use people's fear.

 

-- Sometimes they are wildly successful and have lots of schools.

 

-- They don't say what kind of "karate" they teach, often.

 

-- They try to use the appeal of awards and media exposure/saturation.

 

-- Lots of stupid belt "colors" and meaningless ranks. What the hell is camo belt!?

 

-- Cardio kickboxing to lure the mom, too.

 

-- Freebies.

 

-- Gross, disgusting misuse of the word "ninja".

 

-- "Master Instructor"

 

Ok down teh line..

 

being patriotic i already answered.

 

as far as appealing to kids.... HELLO where have you been? Kids make up the majority of martial arts schools now. Parents spend money to educate their kids in sports, or activities, Who says that martial arts cannot be taught to children. Now if you said that the McDojo caters to children through Black Belt programs to elevate children to the rank of black belt by getting parents to sign contracts that give specific dates for advancement regardless fo the kids ability then id agree... but so far you are 0 for 2

 

as far as using peoples fear? Sorry i think you are overstating it, advertising is used to get people in to the schoolt hat either are interested in it, need it, or want it. If people have a legitimate issue with fear then a martial arts school should be good for them right?

 

Now if you said that they went out of their way to instill fear into people by harping on them either in person or in print adds that the world is going downt he tubes, and that they are going to be attacked and they have to come get training now... then i might agree with you more... 0 for 3

 

sometimes they are wildly successful and have lots of schools...

 

um ya and sometimes great systems and instructors are wildly successful and have lots fo schools too... this has nothing to do with mcdojos. 0 for 4

 

they dont say what kind of karate they teach...... now ill agree here...

 

but i think you mean in the add... as far as that goes a little mystery is a good thing if someone is interested they will call in and a person on the phone can give alot more questions then an add can... what if someone reads the add and doesnt think the style is good from what he has heard... say Tae Kwon Do.... but when he calls in to find out what style is taught the person ont he other end talks to him about his goals, what he is looking for in the martial arts, adn can either help him, or direct him elsewhere... this i see as no issue... if they say we do Karate period... then ya i have issues.. so ill give you this point.... 1 for 5

 

as far as using the appeal of awards and media exposure..... HELLO what do you want them to do, put their best of awards in a trunk and hide them?

 

If they are awarded something for being good isnt that something peopel should know? If they have self awarded themselves and flaunt that then there is an issue... but once again i disagree with you... 1 for 6

 

cardio kickboxing to lure the mom too.... gee and we all know how terrible it is to help peopel get into shape. How horrible it is to give a family something in common.... How horrible it is to offer a program so a mother can stay near her child and both have something they like..

 

I wont even comment any more on this one i think my opinion is apparant... 1 for 7

 

Freebies?.... yes cause we all know that anything good cant have any free stuff attached to it, it must be super expensive and cost a ton of money...

 

so giving a free uniform that is cheap so that someone can be more comfortable about trying something out that they are not sure of is a bad thing? You want the person to spend 200 dollars for a custom uniform to try out a program they may or may not like?

 

I have news for you, many many people started martial arts for free lessons or free uniform and decided they liked it and went on to devote their lifestyles to it.

 

guess what?... yep 1 for 8

 

gross disgusting misuse of the word ninja..... Ok i am sorry this has annoyed you but i have news for you, there is a very successful childrens martial arts program called little ninjas and karate kids... it does a few things.... it helps stoke the fires of the kids imaginations, and it keeps them interested in soemthing longer then it may not.

 

Its called a great advertising tool, a great motivational tool, and there is no mention of killing, spying, or assassinating when it comes to this..

 

apparantly there are real ninjas in your family so ill give you this one even though i disagree and call it 2 for 9

 

 

 

Master Instructor?.... This can be misleading, but i guess it depends on the ranking of the person claiming it.

 

If a title goes with a rank such as ... instructor, assistant instructor, master instructor, professor, senior professor, im sure the list goes on and on.... then it can be valid..

 

If a first black belt is calling himself Master Instructor or something liek grandmaster then yes i agree it is bad, but i guess it depends on the rank of the person claiming it. ill give this one to you for a final score of 3 for 10..

 

thats 30%

 

thats an F on any test i have seen.

 

Maybe these questions should be asked...

 

Is the curriculum worthy to teach and learn?

 

Is the curriculum watered down and misleading?

 

Is the instructor a valid martial artist with a valid belt rank and teaching credentials?

 

Is the organizations after the best interests of everyone involved? or just the best interests of the school owner?

 

Does the school make wild and unsubstantiated claims?

 

Does the school win awards from other organizations?

 

Is the school a value to the community its in?

 

this list can go on and on but i think you get the message.

[Spaceman]

The reference to a "McDojo" is a generic, "cookie-cutter" style dojo that caters to people who take karate for exercise purposes or for children's entertainment with no real basis as to style or actual effectiveness as to self-defense properties. Spaceman is simply pointing out that the way some of these dojos advertise lends creedence to the fact that they are simply dime-a-dozen training places that are nothing truly special for the "hard core" martial artist.

 

That's pretty close to what I mean.

 

My biggest beef with these places isn't that they're giving kids confidence, etc.--that's a positive thing. My problem is they're trying to pass off fun and good vibes as self-defense.

 

If people really want to learn how to defend themselves in life-or-death situations, they should learn such thing as the "ball kick" and the "throat punch".

 

When I see them teaching to three year olds and talking about how kids are superstars, I see fun and entertainment, not a way to keep your kid from being stolen by a pedophile and used as a funtoy.

 

I should also say about 50% of my motivation for posting that was for light humor value. It wasn't a serious critique, it was me having a laugh by degrading an organization I've never had experience with enough to pass judgement.

 

I was kind of disturbed by the self-defense thing, though. If they are teaching stuff that's not valuable in a "don't be killed" kind of way, then that's something to be worried about.

[Drunken Monkey]

just a few things i don't like the sound of...

 

My problem is they're trying to pass off fun and good vibes as self-defense

 

while your statement is true, i don't see how you can possible know that they don't actually teach good self defence.

 

by the same token and turning things a little bit, why can't learning self-defence be fun?

 

also, if it ain't fun, you ain't gonna get a four year old to take part.

 

they should learn such thing as the "ball kick" and the "throat punch"

 

i understand you are giving general terms but their presentation is wrong.

 

we don't to kick the groin or punch the throat.

 

we learn to punch and we learn to kick.

 

where we punch and kick depends on what is available and what we want to achieve.

 

you do not need to kick the groin or punch the throat to defend yourselves and dependence on such 'moves' could land you in even more trouble.

 

When I see them teaching to three year olds and talking about how kids are superstars, I see fun and entertainment, not a way to keep your kid from being stolen by a pedophile and used as a funtoy

 

you do not need to take a kid to a martial arts school to teach them to be sensible and to stay away from strangers.

 

if the aforementioned pervert really does want to kidnap the kid, there isn't a lot a 5/6 year old can do to a fully grown man.

 

as i said before, you have to make it fun or else the kids don't want to learn.

 

also, how else do you propose you teach kids?

 

line them up and make them go full contact against each other?

 

bleeding knuckles and bruised faces?

 

was me having a laugh by degrading an organization I've never had experience with enough to pass judgement

 

i do not know you.

 

does that give me the right to make unsubstantiated statements/judgements about you?

 

I was kind of disturbed by the self-defense thing, though. If they are teaching stuff that's not valuable in a "don't be killed" kind of way, then that's something to be worried about

 

and that is exactly the point.

 

you don't know the school beyond the advert in the directory.

 

i could claim some kind of crazy un-provable yet un-deniable connection to yip man's wing chun school and teach kung fu for reasonable prices,

 

advertise locally using a nice innocent looking ad with very little real 'flash' advertising.

 

by not conforming to what you have jokingly pointed out, does that mean i am not a mcdojo?

[Vito]

just because a place can be described as one of those things (acting patriotic, having a cardio kickbox class, etc) doesnt NECESSARILY mean its a mcdojo- i have to day, having seen a lot of mcdojos here and there... they are definitely red flags.