Goju-Ryu

[BritNoob]

I study Goju and this kind of stuff scares the sh*t out of me

[P.A.L]

Now we talking Go-Ju , is there a version of Kata "Anan" been adapted in Go-ju schools?

[Master Jules]

Sanchin is a kata which facilitates health......provided it is done properly. Some of the health concerns are as mentioned in an earlier post.....hemmoroids.....but.....NOT high blood pressure, or some of the other thoughts mentioned ......another one of the health concerns is sterility.....the end goal of sanchin....practiced at a very high level is the ability to withdraw the testicles into the body.....the constant practice of this can lead to sterility, as in the case of Sekichi Toguchi.....however.....the dying at an early age thing.....NO....not related to sanchin training in any way......sanchin is a form of standing Chi Gung, very health PROMOTING, not the other way around......the real reason that so many Okinawan masters died at an early age has nothing to do with martial arts training at all.......the Okinawans were typically very big drinkers, and smokers......many died due to issues related to the "rotgut" sake they drank, and years and years of HEAVY smoking....one of my teachers had been a student of both Sekichi Toguchi and Masanobu Shinjo since 1960, and has seen and heard it from them both...FIRSTHAND.......think what you want....but Okinawan Goju Ryu has its lineage in white crane kung fu, along with other things like Pakua.....if you have a knowledgeable Goju teacher, then you will be instructed in the old ways, which included a very lengthly series of chi gung excersises......the art of Goju Ryu is one, if practiced traditionally, and correctly, BRINGS health.....it DOES NOT....under any circumstances.....detract from it.......

 

In regards to the comparison between Kanryo Higashionnas training, and that of Miyagi......and this is in NO WAY to detract from Miyagi's training......Kanryo's teachings were much harder and more brutal than Miyagi's, which is the main reason why Miyagi traveled to Fukien....to seek out Higashionna's teacher....Ryu Ryu Ko, who was still alive, although very old.....

[stencil]

Most all Goju masters (I believe there is one or two exceptions) have died very early deaths (60s) whereas other, more softer styles, the typical age is 80+.

 

These people lived up to more than a century ago in a culture that drank and smokes a LOT. Their dealths had nothing to do with practicing Goju Ryu. If anything, it prolonged their inevitable bad health from the way they partied.

At any rate, I find it interesting that Chojun Miyagi's style is so much more harder than that of his teacher Higashionna, whose teachings were incredibly light and more soft.

 

Huh? Based on what? Properly done, Goju Ryu utilized soft, parrying blocks. Don't know where you got this information from, but it sure sounds like your sensei or someone else has been feeding you some misinformation.

Many teachers on Okinawa warn against, as you said, Sanchin as there are many high blood pressure related illnesses and premature death that can result.

 

Many high blood pressure related illnesses and premature death? Have any records on this? Sanchin is a basic breathing exercise and kata. Done properly, it is VERY good for you.

When blocking, the thumb side of the fist is forced sideways towards the forearm, causing pressure to be exerted on a vital point at the side of the wrist. This may result in various lung complications.

 

Again, it is clear you have never practiced proper Goju Ryu. What block are you talking about here? I've never "forced the thumb side of my first toward my forearm." In fact, I've never "forced" anything when blocking.

Forceful closing of the anal sphincter is practiced and may caused haemorrhoids if practice much too hard. Indeed, Higashionna in his early training in China once peed blood due to his overtraining.

 

Misinformation, again. I've been doing Sanchin for five years and my sphincter is doing just fine, thank you.

Perhaps the most reliable health detriment is the fact that certain blood vessels are shut off at the limb joint and blood is unable to flow freely and correctly. This causes strain on the heart, blood vessels and internal organs.

 

Now you said, if people don't practice them quite as hard, I suppose that might be a way to mitigate its effects...

 

Certain blood vessels are shut off at the limb joint? That's cute. I've heard this exact same statement before about Sanchin. I think it was four years ago or so. Perhaps you two have the same teachers?

At any rate, the fact that the following, who are clearly recognized masters, died so much earlier due to health problems than their counterparts in other styles is undisputable:

 

Kanryo Higashionna, age 63

 

Chojun Miyagi, age 65

 

Seiko Higa, age 68

 

There are more, but there names did not stick out at me...

 

Right, because you forgot to mention Toguchi, who died at 81, or Charles Bentz, who, at 76, is still teaching in New York City and kicking major *. He's also still an aeronautics pilot.

[beginner]

As an extreme beginner to Goju, of course this thread caught my eye. I was just wondering where I could learn more about sanchin - also, is it something practiced later on in training or can beginners do the technique as well? Thanks very much!

[BritNoob]

We practiced it from my very first lesson and try to do it at the end of every training session.

 

I'm glad a few people have posted defending Goju.

[aefibird]

I'm glad a few people have posted defending Goju.

 

It just makes me sad that people feel that they have to 'defend' their style (I know, I've done it on numerous occasions with Shotokan!).

 

I thought we were all supposed to be martial artists here, not style bashers?

 

Hey, so a style isn't for a particular person? That's OK, but it may be 100% suitable for another person. I might not be a big fan of Style X or Style Y but the fact that those styles aren't for me doesn't give me the right to go around bad mouthing them to all and sundry, or spreading falsehoods or half-truths. They may be the best styles in the world (and therefore very suitable) for another person.

 

Sorry for the mini-rant, but there is enough negative press about the martial arts from outside them , without MA students adding to it. Lets all try to pull in the same direction guys.

[Shorin Ryuu]

These people lived up to more than a century ago in a culture that drank and smokes a LOT. Their dealths had nothing to do with practicing Goju Ryu. If anything, it prolonged their inevitable bad health from the way they partied.

 

It is a common phenomenon nowadays in Okinawa. Plus, the ones I mentioned died in 1917, 1953 and 1966, respectively...

 

So what you're saying is that Goju ryu practitioners all drank and smoke more than their counterparts? That, or it was that much less effective in preventing early death than other styles...

Huh? Based on what? Properly done, Goju Ryu utilized soft, parrying blocks. Don't know where you got this information from, but it sure sounds like your sensei or someone else has been feeding you some misinformation.

 

What part of dynamic tension is soft? The extreme body hardening techniques of Goju Ryu epitomize what is meant by a "hard" style. Besides, the main thing I was referring to was the foot anchoring and solid stances of Goju Ryu are in stark contrast to Higaonna's style of fighting, which was characterized by low and very fast footwork. Furthermore, the artificial breathing in Goju Ryu is by no means "soft" at all.

Many teachers on Okinawa warn against, as you said, Sanchin as there are many high blood pressure related illnesses and premature death that can result.

 

In numerous studies by respected authors, Mark Bishop for example, many karate masters warned against the dangers of Goju Ryu simply because they've observed the premature death of those they considered as friends (remember, these people all trained with each other and most of them were always on friendly terms with each other). Therefore it was a warning not out of spite, but out of a sense of loss...

Certain blood vessels are shut off at the limb joint? That's cute. I've heard this exact same statement before about Sanchin. I think it was four years ago or so. Perhaps you two have the same teachers?

 

I know much of what I know through reading many books. All the same, one of my instructors in the past was a Goju Ryu 5th dan who practiced it for over 20 years, and quit because of long term health concerns due to his training (mostly the hardness of it).

Right, because you forgot to mention Toguchi, who died at 81, or Charles Bentz, who, at 76, is still teaching in New York City and kicking major *. He's also still an aeronautics pilot.

 

Nor did I mention Yoshio Itokazu, who practised Goju Ryu for over 65 years and is over 80 years old...of course his Sanchin is preformed in a much softer way than most and tightens his legs rather than his buttocks or his anal sphincter.

 

These are the exceptions rather than the rule. Doesn't it seem strange that the ones I mentioned were heads of Goju Ryu (or the progenitor) at one point?

 

Lastly, I don't want this to turn into a flame war (as it seems to be). I am sharing my research on the matter and you are sharing yours.

 

P.A.L. wrote:

Shorin-Ryuu, if you reffering to sanchin and tensho

 

I was told even in okinawa they don't practice them with %100 power because of health issues, I practice sanchin and i have got very good results ( change in metabulism) but i normally go with %60-%70 power for 2-3 times in a short intervals.

I am merely trying to point out the fact that most Goju Ryu stylists in Okinawa go this %100, explaining why Goju Ryu can be dangerous. Yes, if you don't do it 100 percent, then you might be alright. I'm just saying that there are many styles out there that if you do go 100 percent, you never have this problem...

 

Lastly, this isn't a post deprecating many techniques in Goju Ryu, there are quite a bit to be found in Goju Ryu and they have had many great masters in their history and the present day. This isn't my gripe with Goju Ryu, its my gripe with extensively "hard" aspects of training in general, but this is just an example.

 

If we agree to disagree, then that it is fine. To be fair, I think you all should get your last posts in response to mine, and then maybe someone should shut the thread before it generates any real hostility. I haven't been convinced of changing my view, and apparently I am not convincing some of you. I leave it to the discretion of moderators...

 

EDIT: Nevermind...people can just respond to this, but I probably won't respond unless someone really wants me to. The purpose of this thread was to ask about Goju Ryu in general, so I probably should've started a new one, but didn't think about it at the time.

[stencil]

The problem, Shorin, is that you're a Shorin Ryu practitioner criticising a style that you do not practice, have not practiced for any length of time, and are basing your "evidence" on the hearsay coming from those who want to sell you more Shorin Ryu.

 

Mark Bishop, for instance, was widely criticized for being pretty disrespectful of Goju and non-Shorin senseis he "interviewed" when he wrote his book about Okinawan Karate. This is widely known, and his bias is clear throughout the book. In fact, your criticism of Sanchin is pretty much verbatim from his book:

 

Mark Bishop in his book “Okinawan karate” :

 

“in order to harden the buttocks during the sanchin exercise , forceful closing of the anal sphincter is practiced. This ,I was assured will result in haemorrhoids after only two or three years of regular practice.”

 

He's the only person who has ever reported the sphincter having anything to do with Sanchin, to my knowledge.

 

Also, your assertion that Goju Ryu is a "hard" style show that you have little to no knowledge about the style, and as such, should probably not feed the myths about Sanchin.

 

For your edification, Goju Ryu uses some extremely soft techniques coupled with natural breathing and some very versatile footwork. To think that Goju people breathe heavy while squeezing their sphincters and barely moving around is just...silly. And wrong.

 

I'm curious - from where have you garnered information about Goju Ryu aside from those who teach you what you know at your club? Have you practiced it? How long? Have you heard any of these criticisms from people who are still practicing it outside your club?

 

I think it's time you step down and take the humble, noble way out of this and admit that you do not practice Goju, do not know anyone currently practicing Goju, and as such are not in a position to posit any criticisms about it.

 

You don't see me or anyone else talking about Shorin, do you? You know why? Because we don't practice it, and as such should not make any assumptions or opinions about it. We know when to open our mouths out of respect.

 

The only things I can be sure that you have not learned from your style are humility and respect.

[Master Jules]

Not to "feed" a possible flame war......but......Stencil is correct in his suggestion and observation.

 

~Master Jules