To regulate, or not to regulate...

[Shorinryu Sensei]

...that is the question.

 

As most of us know, the martial arts are swarming with Mcdojo's, young children with black belts, bogus "Masters", and just plain rip-off dojo's.

 

So my question for you is this. Do you think that the government, state or federal, should set up a commission of sorts, and regulate the martial arts to insure consistency, legitimacy and to protect the general public from being ripped off?

 

As I see it, there are pro's and con's to both sides of the argument.

 

Personally, when I see a McDojo, I wish there was a governing body, similar to the Better Business Bureau, that would have the power to close a business for bad practices, or the power to impose fines on them.

 

I also absolutely hate to see young children (I've seen as young as 7 years of age) being promoted to black belt. Regardless of what they call it (Jr. Black Belt for example)...it's still a black belt, and I feel it cheapens all other legitimate black belts that truly have the skills and knowledge to wear the belt. Everybody's concept of what a black belt means is different of course, and mine is of the traditional view, where a black belt shoudl be able to teach a class to adults of children, and should also be able to hand your average street confrontation efficiently and effectively. Can anybody really think a 10 year old black belt can handle any average adult man in a fight? I don't think so.

 

But then again, who would we put on the commission to govern the martial arts? Who has the wisdom, knowledge and non-partisonship to choose someone not in their own system to be on the panel? Would I want a TKD sensei to make decisions for my school? A Aikido sytlist? Parker Kempo?

 

I am just trying to open this up for some discussion...so let's have it people!

[delta1]

No way would I support any sort of regulation!!!!!!!

Do you think that the government, state or federal, should set up a commission of sorts, and regulate the martial arts to insure consistency, legitimacy and to protect the general public from being ripped off?

 

No! First off, how can a government beaurocracy guarantee anything more than mediocrity? And make NO mistake, that's what regulation would guarantee. You want McDojos? Regulate, and that will be the standard. Guaranteed!

Personally, when I see a McDojo, I wish there was a governing body, similar to the Better Business Bureau, that would have the power to close a business for bad practices, or the power to impose fines on them.

 

Hell, people, we already have the Better Business Beureau. You can already report a school/business for bad business practices. But do you want them to be able to evaluate your instruction and shut you down?

I also absolutely hate to see young children (I've seen as young as 7 years of age) being promoted to black belt. Regardless of what they call it (Jr. Black Belt for example)...it's still a black belt, and I feel it cheapens all other legitimate black belts that truly have the skills and knowledge to wear the belt. ... Can anybody really think a 10 year old black belt can handle any average adult man in a fight? I don't think so.

 

Sorry to say this, SS, but it's none of your (or my) business who they promote. I don't particularly like it either. But I DON'T want to give the government the power to shut them down, because, know what- if they can do it to them, they can do it to you and me!

 

And, the question isn't whether a 10 year old can whip a grown man. The question is, can he handle the class bully? Does he at least have a better chance than if he didn't take a martial art? Can you handle every man you meet on the street?

Who has the wisdom, knowledge and non-partisonship to choose someone not in their own system to be on the panel? Would I want a TKD sensei to make decisions for my school? A Aikido sytlist? Parker Kempo?

 

You sould be so lucky! You'll get some know it all McDojo grad who got his BB at 6, then quit the MA's until this chance at power and prestige to head up your new beaurocracy. He's now 50, bald and fat, and pasty, and he fears and hates anyone who actually earned his rank. Good luck keeping your school open.

 

One more thing, there is NO SUCH THING as limmited regulation. It will either be regulated, or it won't.

 

Gads, man, you usually make more sense than this.

[Drunken Monkey]

i say...

 

self regulate.

 

if you want the government to do one thing fr martial arts,

 

then i say we all petition for the legalisation of fighting under old chinese 'kick door' rules.

 

who says 'traditional' is bad?

[tommarker]

No, NO, and HELL NO!

 

The last thing I want is some beancounter finding out that I teach really nasty stuff, play with knives, teach my students to go for the eyes, how to conceal weapons (legally) and how to improvise weapons! They'd have me on some enemy of the state list, or have the ATF sniffin around!

 

And yeah, then you've got the problem of forming a (God forbid) committee! Can you imagine some committee biased with head-in-the-sky aikido hippies (sorry aiki folks, but aikido and tai chi seem to have the most spacy hippy people per capita, not a knock on the art) telling me that I can't teach a certain skill and should be focusing on aligning my enemy's spirit with that of the universe instead?

 

Extreme example, I know... but politics these days seems to be either one extreme or the other. And once something is regulated, it is very difficult to be de-regulated. Giving up control, you know.

 

Regulation = Good teachers going underground. I know I would.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

No! First off, how can a government beaurocracy guarantee anything more than mediocrity? And make NO mistake, that's what regulation would guarantee. You want McDojos? Regulate, and that will be the standard. Guaranteed!

 

No arguement from me bud. I'm just trying to stuir up some discussion here.

Hell, people, we already have the Better Business Beureau. You can already report a school/business for bad business practices. But do you want them to be able to evaluate your instruction and shut you down?

 

When was the last time you heard of the BBB fining or doing anything against a McDojo that is obviously taking people's $'s, but not giving anything of value? (subjective idea, I know).

Sorry to say this, SS, but it's none of your (or my) business who they promote. I don't particularly like it either. But I DON'T want to give the government the power to shut them down, because, know what- if they can do it to them, they can do it to you and me!

 

Granted, it's none of my business..but you and I know delta1 that is is pure *.

And, the question isn't whether a 10 year old can whip a grown man. The question is, can he handle the class bully? Does he at least have a better chance than if he didn't take a martial art?

 

Well, we would assume that yes, the 10 yr old should be able to handle himself against another 10 yr old. But turn that around, and I know a couple of adult TKD BB's that have gotten their butts handed to them by average, to slightly above average (a little boxing background) individuals. That shouldn't, IMHO, be happening.

Can you handle every man you meet on the street?

 

Of course not.

Who has the wisdom, knowledge and non-partisonship to choose someone not in their own system to be on the panel? Would I want a TKD sensei to make decisions for my school? A Aikido sytlist? Parker Kempo?

 

Gads, man, you usually make more sense than this.

 

Maybe I'm having flashbacks to the late '60's tonight? Hey bud, I was just trying to spark some discussion. Lower those hackles a bit will ya? [/b]

[delta1]

When was the last time you heard of the BBB fining or doing anything against a McDojo that is obviously taking people's $'s, but not giving anything of value? (subjective idea, I know).

 

True, they will let you sell junk to anyone who wants to buy it. But if they are hard selling exhorbitant contracts and not letting people back out before the time limmit, they will list the school. I don't think they can close you down or fine you, but they can suggest that your victims seek legal counsel and recourse.

Granted, it's none of my business..but you and I know delta1 that is is pure *.

 

Yes, I agree. But I'd rather have it handled by consumer awareness, peer pressure, and those of us who know the difference standing up and speaking out. Regulation ain't th' way!

...I know a couple of adult TKD BB's that have gotten their butts handed to them by average, to slightly above average (a little boxing background) individuals. That shouldn't, IMHO, be happening.

 

No, it shouldn't. But it does, and I don't see much that we can do about it except what I've already suggested. But, that goes a long way. Look at how many people seek advice from this and other boards. And you can talk to your friends and family about it. We can't save 'em all, but we can make a dent.

Maybe I'm having flashbacks to the late '60's tonight? Hey bud, I was just trying to spark some discussion. Lower those hackles a bit will ya? [/b]

 

Sorry I teed off on ya a little. Not so much you as the topic, actually. I have this one BIG button, labeled "Gov't Reg", and you found it.

[delta1]

(sorry aiki folks, but aikido and tai chi seem to have the most spacy hippy people per capita, not a knock on the art)

 

Sadly, I have to agree with you! But it is a lot of fun to show them the combat applications and watch them turn !

[Drunken Monkey]

...i once had a semi-amusing encounter with a guy who was 'doing tai-chi' in a park.

 

he was rather horrified when i told him,

 

and showed him that the movement i saw him doing,

 

was traditionally used to intercept and then break an arm/limb/joint....

[Pacificshore]

Just as Delta said....HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!

 

Besides, if someone wants to spend their $$ at a McDojo, then so be it. Not up to me how they train, or where/whom they get it from. So long as my students have confidence in my teaching abilities, and feel that they can defend themselves, then I'm happy

[Drunken Monkey]

.....ok

 

joking aside.

 

regulation is bad.

 

i mean, look at the current state of affairs with the governing bodies of martial arts we have today.

 

it can be argued that they are the reason for the proliferation of mcdojos (or perhaps better to talk of the mcdojo effect...).

 

the only thing that i can see happening if you have one government approved body to regulate is that power will be greater and held by fewer people.

 

i can't see how that will do anything other than to create government approved mcdojos.

 

another problem is who do you chose to regulate?

 

do you have one representative from each style?

 

how do you choose?

 

who goes up?

 

it'll just present an even bigger power struggle within an already chaotic system.

 

like i said before, i think it is up to us to weed out the bad crop.

 

when i said legalise 'kick door' i wasn't joking.

 

what better deterent than to know that if you aren't legit, you run the risk of every legit hard working sensei/sifu knocking on your door with a nice letter offering a challenge in a public neutral ground?

 

granted that there are going to be issues with this sort of thing going on but it's more appealing to me than to have a 'sanctioned' governing body.

 

the one aspect i think that you can regulate is the cost of things....

 

but then, the thing we gain from martial arts training isn't something you can measure.

 

how can you say that one black belt is worth x amount of money whilst a black belt form another school is worth y?

 

this is something that, like delta said, we should simply stand up and shout about.

 

we have more power than you think.

 

after all, if all of their students walk out, what an they do then?

 

see, i don't really have an issue with the money thing as long as what is being taught is good.

 

once upon a time (not too long ago i might add), saying you were a martial artist meant something.

 

today, if you said that, you would probably get laughed at.

 

that's what i would like to change.

 

how?

 

like i said, 'kick door' is the way to go....