What came first?

[SevenStar]

Unknown - jujutsu came first, actually. The term jiu jitsu is not japanese in origin - it's a western translation that is considered wrong in japanese. "jiu jitsu" has since become associated with the brazilian style. So, technically, he was right anyway.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Karate as we know it actually was introduced around the 1905-ish time frame to Japan and into the elemetary school system. This came from Okinawa, not China and the people who did it were Okinawan masters. Granted, there have been some Chinese influences in the developments of other Japanese martial arts, I believe jujitsu and aikijutsu, but my research on that is a bit hazy. That doesn't mean that they were directly copied, just that there was some interaction, I believe. The art of karate is extremely new to Japan (relatively speaking).

The tokugawa era was quite violent, and skills were needed with both weapons and the empty hand.

Actually, quite the contrary. During the Tokugawa era, it was quite peaceful. The most peace that Japan had had in quite a long time. The flourishing of schools in this time period came because simply, a lot of samurai did not have much to do. It was during the Tokugawa era that samurai skill decreased a little bit in my opinion, as they became more akin to clerks rather than seasoned warriors. Once the Tokugawa era was established, there really weren't too many battles, and certainly nowhere near the level as during the Sengoku Jidai (warring states period, including the reunification of Japan under Oda Nobunaga, Toyotoma Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu). During the Kamakura and the Muromachi eras for example, was when you had samurai that were constantly in the field and had to learn all sorts of arts, like Kenjutsu (the sword), Sojutsu (spear-like weapons), Naginatajutsu (naginata, obviously), Kyuujutsu (archery), grappling (including in the water), and the tying of subdued opponents (I forget its name). There are more, but you get the picture.

 

Sorry, one of my majors for my bachelors degree in college was Foreign Area Studies with a Far East Asian concentration...I couldn't let that pass...

[SevenStar]

This came from Okinawa, not China and the people who did it were Okinawan masters.

 

true, but it came to Okinawa via china, which is why I say it can be traced back to china.

 

 

Actually, quite the contrary. During the Tokugawa era, it was quite peaceful. The most peace that Japan had had in quite a long time.

 

really? I thought that was the meiji era, which was when all of the koryu schools began to die, and the modern "do" schools began to appear. Granted, that was the end of the the tokugawa, but the tokugawa lasted for 200 years or so...

[Shorin Ryuu]

true, but it came to Okinawa via china, which is why I say it can be traced back to china.

This is accurate, but it adopted quite a few Okinawan traits. Still heavily influenced by Chinese concepts, but I separate the two as my personal preference

really? I thought that was the meiji era, which was when all of the koryu schools began to die, and the modern "do" schools began to appear. Granted, that was the end of the the tokugawa, but the tokugawa lasted for 200 years or so...

The Tokugawa era lasted from 1600-1868. Of course at the beginning and end of these periods, there was still quite a bit of violence, but for the vast majority of it, it was very peaceful. Ironically, the use of guns was one of the biggest deciding factors that helped the unification of Japan, but was later eschewed by the samurai class because it threatened their status as warriors. In fact, regimented volley fire tactics were used in Japan before their use in Europe...

 

There were still many schools that taught deadly jutsu, but at the same time, there were many that were less "battle tested" so to speak. As I mentioned before, the role of the samurai switched from soldier to clerk in most cases. Especially towards the end of the Tokugawa era, the class of samurai wasn't even as rigid anymore. Bushi status could be sold and bought, and many took on side jobs (which wasn't permitted) to support themselves. This was the product of the system with which samurai were paid. They were paid in koku (a unit of measurement) of rice a year. During the long period of peace during the Tokugawa Era, the powers of merchants rose as the economy became much less Neo-Confucian and more market oriented. At the same time, rice was no longer the system of currency used for transactions and was then subject to market forces (usually its value just got lower and lower). Now you have a whole class of people who are just getting paid rice, as opposed to gold or silver. That was one of the biggest reasons for the Meiji Restoration (combined with the threat of foreign intervention with the opening of Japan by America). For those of you that watched Rurouni Kenshin, history is just a little different from the romanticized version...

 

With the Meiji era that followed (victory having been won by technology, not the power of swords), there was a bigger push to end many jutsu schools and place the emphasis upon do. Obviously the abolition of samurai class in the Meiji era had something to do with this, combined with the introduction of modern technology in large amounts since the 1850s, and the simple lack of a need for battle-tested techniques.

 

As a side note, I did some research on zen and the martial arts for a paper in college, and most of what I found showed that during the periods preceding the Tokugawa era, zen was used mainly as a tool to help the warrior cope with death and enhance his battle psyche. Later on, especially in more peaceful times, it evolved to be an even deeper part of the martial arts. Some books on this I'd recommend are Zen and the Way of the Sword by Winston King and Zen and Japanese Culture by Daisetz T. Suzuki. Daisetz Suzuki I believe is one of the earlier writers to the West about Zen and has written quite a few other books (some of which I've read).

[SevenStar]

great info, thanks for the clarification.

 

As far as karate goes, I separate them too. For the purposes of tracing orign though, the link to china is relevant, which is why I stated it.