Whats the difference between Wing Chun and Wing Tchun?

[glassman06wtd]

I study Leung Ting WingTsun Kung Fu. I take issue with your idea of what you refer to as tratitional. First of all Yip Man was taught 2 styles of Wing Chun. one style was much better than the other in using the energy of others against them. It was softer-much softer, but it was better-much better. In later years Grand Master Yip Man, while teaching, took it upon himself to teach the Master Chow Version to some, and a mixture of the Master Chow version and the Master Leung version. There is only one person who has learned the unadulterated Master Leung Jan-Bik version-That is Grand Master Dr. Leung Ting. After GM Yip Mans death, Dr. Leung spent 18 years in Hong Kong and mainland China going to all the families in an effort to understand the differences. Also, there were a couple movements in the form that were not matching up to the application. He found, in his travels, very small differences in some of the forms for him to see what was lost even to Grand Master Yip Man. For example, There is a certain type kick in WT that was not found in the form. After careful study Dr. Leung added the kick into the Chum Kiu form where he logically determined it belonged. Years later while visiting a Wing Chun family in mainland China he discovered they had the kick, and it was right where he put it. All in all very few changes were made to Grand Master Yip Mans Leung Jan-Leung Bik version of Wing Chun. Dr. Leung did standardize the system when he went public with it but that is because if one is going to operate a worldwide org than one needs to have some levels and guide lines, which is only practical. Incidently there are differences in the WingTsun of Europe and areas of the US, to that of China/Hong Kong and other parts of the US. The European system has employed some excercises that were not in the system before. US schools also employed these changes and excercises into their programs under the guidance of the former headman, Emin Boztepe. My Si-Fu employed these excercises and changes briefly then after finding they were standing in the way of some important WT principles, he refused to teach these any longer, and went back to the pure Leung Jan-Bik version.

 

Good Day

 

glassman06wtd

[Drunken Monkey]

There is only one person who has learned the unadulterated Master Leung Jan-Bik version-That is Grand Master Dr. Leung Ting

 

no offence but this just sounds like you are repeating what you have been told by those in your organisation.

 

two things.

 

i) historically, there is no record of leung jan having a son called leung bik.

 

ii) the yip man/leung bik story also has no basis and it is said that yip man admitted that it was made up by a reporter friend of his to 'spice things up' (put it this way, yip chun said the story is bunk)

 

also, there is no 'pure' leung jan version.

 

leung jan himself taught many different version of wing chun, depending on the student and depending on the period of his life.

 

fact is, yip man wing chun is just one branch of wing chun.

 

there are many others that stemmed off from two generations before leung jan.

 

as i have (almost) said before, any wing chun from after the leung jan period can't really be called traditional because there was, two generations before, ONE (traditional) system before it began its spreading out and modifications began.

 

there is however, one line of wing chun that claims to be unbroken from the original style, passing on to family strictly, one generation after the other.

[glassman06wtd]

Yes in a sense I am repeating what I have heard from my org and I have no reason to dis-believe it, nor cower to the thought. My Si-Fu was a closed door student of Dr. Leung Ting. Leung Ting was a closed door student of Grand Master Yip Man. "Closed door" essentially means coming into the family; not just remaining a student. GM Yip told my Si-Kung this story. He had a two-fold reason for the story. One was to relay that one should keep and open mind, and the other is one should stay humble because there is always someone better out there. There are several versions of the story. I'll tell you the story my Si-Fu told me that was told to him by Dr. Leung, that was told to him by GM Yip Man.

 

GM Yip Man as a young man, who had been traind by Master Chow, went into Hong Kong and built for himself a very impressive fight record. He was well known for being a fighter that no one could lay a finger on. After a certian fight he was approached by a young man, Leung Bik, who said he knew of someone who could beat him. Yip Man relished the idea of fighing a "master", so Leung Bik took Yip Man to his Fathers boat. His father, being Leung Jan, was quickly challenged by Yip Man. Leung Jan asked the young man what stlye he studied. Yip Man responded by telling this elder Wing Chun as he ripped his shirt off and began performing the Siu Nim Tau. After which he told the elder he thought he could beat him in a fight. The elder then invited Yip Man onboard his vessel. Yip Man then launched a number of his most furious attacks each time finding himself in the drink. After realizing he hadn't been able to lay a finger on this elder Yip Man humbled himself before Leung Jan and asked him what this kung-fu he had been beaten with was. Master Leung Jan told him that it too was Wing Chun. GM Yip man then asked Leung Jan to teach him his family version of Wing Chun at which time he became a student of the family, with Leung Jan being his Si-Fu. At his death bed, Leung Jan asked Leung Bik, his son, to finish teaching Yip man in the family way which he did. You of all people know that most sifus at that time and even now, regardless of the Kung-Fu system, had at least 2 ways of teaching. One way was for public students, that is if they took students from the public. Then there was the family way. It was the perogative of the Si-Fu as to whether he would teach a special non-family student the faimily version. Of course very few people would ever have the priveledge of even seeing the family way, much less learning it. GM Yip Man was one of these people. Yip Man stole his Si-Fu's heart by his dedication and natural ability. Leung Jan was more than happy to give him everything.

 

I do not doubt that Leung Jan taught different people different ways. I also do not doubt the Leung Family taught Yip Man the "pure" family fighting style.

 

I agree that GM Yip Mans version's Wing Chun is one of a number of lineages. Re-read my earlier post. You'll see I referred to how Dr. Leung Ting went to various families both in Hong Kong and mainland China in an attempt to understand some of the differences he found over time.

 

Again, as far as modification-as stated earlier, Dr. Leung made very few modifications to the Wing Tsun he learned from GM Yip Man.

 

Good day.

 

glassman

[Drunken Monkey]

see the thing is, there are many many little holes in that little story.

 

firstly, leung ting's studies with yip man have always been a highly contentious issue.

 

bare in mind, that leung ting was one of the last students who joined class and being of a wealthier background, he could afford the private tutition (whether or not it was 'closed door' as it used to be, no one knows except leung ting now...)

 

bare in mind that there were many other private students.

 

BUT

 

these private students never took part in the famous after school training that the likes of wong shun leung, leung sheung, tsui sheung tin, cheung hok kin, william cheung and bruce lee took part in...

 

as far as i'm aware, leung jan never went to hk and he certainly never had a boat (he a wasn't really a rich man and had no need for a boat...).

 

he spent most of his life in futshan at jan shan tong and when he retired, he moved out if the city and back into his home village.

 

again, i point to their being very little record of leung jan having a son called leung bik.

 

also, leung jan was famous in futshan (as well as his school/medicine shop).

 

for a young man who studies wing chun to not know who leung jan was or what he looked like is a bit , well, silly.

 

also, how yip man entered leung jan's school is a well documented event that has been confirmed by his sons (and it did not involve a boat....)

 

the person who was told to finish yip man's training (because leung jan dies not long after yip man joined) was ng jung so

 

(not leung bik who most probably didn't exsist except in the mysterious meeting story which was made up by yip man's writer friend).

 

the reason yip man had many different ways of teaching was not because he learnt both family and non-family wing chun.

 

it was because he, at his peak, trained with other wing chun sifus/students from different lineages, the most famous being lee shing and jiu wan as well as many meetings with pan nam (and i also believe he regulary crossed hands with yuen kay shan as well, my memory is a bit fuzzy).

[aefibird]

If there are differences between Wing Chun and Wing Tsun, are there also differences between WC, WT and Ving Tsun? (or is the difference simply one of spelling?)

 

Forgive my ignorance, I'm a Chinese styles 'newbie'!

 

Thanks.

[Drunken Monkey]

it's all a matter of spelling.

 

there are however, some differences in the chinese characters used and they do actualy mean different things.

 

still pronounced the same though...

 

(kinda somewhere inbetween 'wing chun' and 'wing choon' and 'wing churn')

 

the funny thing is, you'll find that the only people who choose to use a different spelling are some guys from yip man's line.

 

everyone else just sticks to 'wing chun' and possibly a little note to say who is the recognised 'head'.

 

i.e yip man wing chun, yuen kay shan wing chun, pan nam wing chun, hung suen wing chun etc etc.

 

often , these days, it's also quite common to mention the student of the guys emntioned above instead (because of differences after yip man)

 

so you have yip chun wing chun, yip ching wing chun, wong shun leung wing chun etc etc.

 

in the past, it wasn't comon practice to say what style you are leaning, only that you are learning kung fu.

 

y'know, you don't say you are learning wing chun, you say you are leaning kung fu.

 

then when they ask who your sifu was, the style should be obvious (hence, not important in conversation)

[stonecrusher69]

Hello just wanted to say hello to any fellow wing chuners here.My style of wing chun is called budha hand wing chun and I alos studied from yip man linage as well.By the way wether you spell it wing chun,wing stun,ving tsun at all means the same .

[stonecrusher69]

Hello just wanted to say hello to any fellow wing chuners here.My style of wing chun is called budha hand wing chun and I alos studied from yip man linage as well.By the way wether you spell it wing chun,wing stun,ving tsun at all means the same .

[Drunken Monkey]

buddha hand?

 

as in fut sau, right (with the 'sam bai fut' in their training)

 

i haven't had the privilege of crossing hands with you guys.

 

there aren't to my knowledge, many schools of that line around my parts.

[stonecrusher69]

Yes,I'm from the Fut Sao lineage...yeah, we have sam bai fut in our training also.I live in NJ trained IN NYC and now in NJ.There's not many Buddha hand guys around.Just a small family of us.If your ever in Jersey and like to meet some of us or like to know more about us just let me know.Where are you from?

 

Take care,

 

Mike

 

wck108@usa.com