Tai Chi Chuan

[Disciple]

Any Practicioners of the Grand Ultimate Fist? (right on the translation?)

 

I am interested in its techniques and philosphy.

[Luckykboxer]

actually i have been meaning to ask about this.. i hope you dont mind me adding my question to yours..

 

I dont know about that, but my question is how many forms are there?

 

I have heard everything from there is 1 form, to 24 forms, to many forms, and every answer in between.

 

I havent really thought about asking when i am around people who know, and havent been motivated enough to try to research it at this time.

 

I actually have to learn whatever form it is that my instructor teaches sooner or later though as he added it as a requirement for our third black belt i think...

[Rotten Head Fok]

I am a begginer at TCC, I study and practice Yang style Tai Chi Chuan. I know of a 24, 37, 40, 108 movement forms, not including weapons, excersices, or meditation. I am practicing the 24 movement form at present. I am no expert, but I would like to discuss this topic as well. I know of two other styles, Wu, and Chen. As far as I know that is the correct translation, "Grand Ultimate Fist."

[delta1]

"Grand Ultimate Fist" is the most common, and probably least correct translation of Taijiquan (Tai Chi Chuan). Also called the Grand Terminus or Grand Nexus, Taiji is the seperation of Yin and Yang. Taiji was actually a philosophy over 1000 years before Tamo introduced Buddhism to China. The martial art of Taijiquan-fa is relatively new in history, and is based on Taiji philosophy.

 

There were several family styles of Taiji, but the older 'Temple Style' is rare, and really the only true Taiji. What we get is almost allways the more modern family styles- which is probably good since few of us have the time, dedication or determination required to learn the real thing. I've read that those who practiced it lived like monks and dedicated their lives to its study.

 

The family styles came into prominence in the late 1700's after the Manchurian conquest of China. The head of the Yang family was forced to teach the Manchu's Taiji, but taught a watered down, adulterated version. This is what spread and became popular. Still one of the most effective fighting arts out there, so the original must be truly remarkable.

 

I've avoided getting into the philosophy. Hopefully Jerry Love will see this and comment on that aspect. I think he's a Taoist, or at least a student of Taoist philosophy, and so can probably give a better representation on that subject.

Edited July 10, 2004 by delta1

[delta1]

how many forms are there?

 

In Yang Taji, there are typically three. They have 24, 48, and 108 movements, but that can varry depending on how your school counts the movements. The 24 & 48 forms are actually recent adaptations by the Chinese government.

 

If you study Taiji as a martial art, you also have:

 

qigong- meditation and qi developement

 

push hands- sensitivity training

 

applications are extrapolated and developed from the moves in the form

 

some chin-na and shui jao with your applications

 

sparing- often pre arranged but not allways

 

drills

 

Actually, if you can start earlier, I'd recomend doing the Taiji as soon as possible. It will improve any martial art you do.

[Disciple]

Can anyone talk about the type of movements involved in Tai Chi Chuan. I have heard it spoken of as a soft art alot, but also reading things that make it seem like it contains more of harder aspects of a martial art. can anyone enlighten me?

[JerryLove]

delta,

 

pretty on-the money; though I'm familiar with a non-familiy liniage. Do you have any info on where I might find "temple Taiji" (or better, a practitioner of it?).

 

Disciple (and hopefully this will contribute something of the hinted request for philosophy),

 

China has three prominant internal arts: Bagua (Paqua), Xingyi (Hsing-I), and Taiji (TaiChi). Compared to other arts, they share more in common than have in discord.

 

Taiji, counter to common conception, is an exceptionally mobile art. The "water" metaphor, so ofren used in martial arts, seems to apply to Taiji and Bagua more than any others I can think of.

 

The movements are relaxed and focused on proper energy and structure. As such, the practitioner is soft, and Taiji is more than willing to "void" and not meet force, where it does meet, it tends to crash through... that is to say, it doesn't attempt to resist your force with it's own so much as simply assert it's own force and woe be it to anyone in the way

 

Of course, this also varies by style... Chen, though having the same principles as Yang, can be accurately be called in many ways "harder" (less gentile to the person performing it).

[delta1]

delta,

 

pretty on-the money; though I'm familiar with a non-familiy liniage. Do you have any info on where I might find "temple Taiji" (or better, a practitioner of it?).

 

I wish I did! I'm not even sure it actually exists, to tell the truth. I probably should have said 'the fabled' or 'rumored'. The term, as I understand its use, refers to the old system where practitioners were able to pretty much devote their lives to it, and before it was watered down. As I recall, after the fall of the Ch' ing Dynasty(Manchurian, and I'm not sure about the name as I'm digging way back in my somewhat aging memory here), the ruling class had to make a living doing something other than ruling. They were scattered, and many of them taught Taiji. They said it was original, as taught by Yang, and were very popular as instructors. Of course, what they taught had nowhere near the deapth of the real thing, which is probably another reason it became popular. We aren't the only people who like to get 'the real thing' for a fraction of the effort!

 

Any way, back to the question. I don't know how the 'temple' version was handed down, or how far it is from the old. And I don't know anyone that even claims to practice it. There are a lot of interesting systems out there, though. One of the best I've come across is Yiliquan. It is Taiji based, with elements of other systems incorporated, and purely a combat art from the start. Dr. Yang, Zwing Ming has an institution in Seattle (I believe). I usually avoid going to Seattle at all costs, but if I could visit that it might be enough to entice me to go there. Neither of these are 'Temple Taiji', but if you could find something or someone affiliated with them they are pretty in deapth and interesting.

[Drunken Monkey]

hmm, y'know, i don't think i've actually heard of this (at least i don't recognise anything from the english...)

 

can you guys give me a little more info about 'temple taiji'.

 

some names of people so i can go peruse the old text books?

 

cheers.

 

monkey.

[tommarker]

There is also a Sun style, and JAMA a few years ago did a whole spread on the "Fu" (I think?) family style which was very different.

 

There are also many variant's of Yang Style.. Shuai Chiao people often do a "Ch'ang" modified version of Yang Style. It's done quite a bit faster, and the applications are (surprise, surprise) focused on throws.