What did Bruce Lee die from?

[47MartialMan]

Look like we have another "degrader" also.

[Drunken Monkey]

i call him a worshipper.

 

part of the intent is mockery.

 

part of the intent is to sneer.

 

is it degrading?

 

maybe.

 

if he wants to worship bruce lee

 

and from his choice of words i don't see otherwise,

 

so be it?

 

his choice.

 

i don't even care but at least offer good debate.

 

i haven't gotten any of that yet.

 

in fact, all i've seen so far is what every other person who falls in the 'worshipper' catagory gives when such topics come up.

[47MartialMan]

Yeah, I usually see WC stylists "cut him down"

[GhostlySykanRyu]

All right, let's clear this up now...

 

"the wong jack man fight offers nothing except that bruce lee won. "

 

-Fair enough, though there were witnesses and there are exerpts.

 

"by all accounts it wasn't even a proper fight (don't romantasise it by calling it a 'battle'). "

 

-And you consider any form of fighting proper?

 

"chasing each other around like little boys? "

 

-It's not a fight I would have taken part in, but much was at stake, and Lee felt the need to teach. The results were his entire life and well being!

 

"i seem to recall something about hitting him in the back of the head? "

 

-If it happened, then so be it. Wong Jack Man must have left the target open.

 

"wong jack man wasn't even a 'rival' as you put it."

 

-True, he was a tool that was supposed to shut Lee down for good.

 

"he was merely someone who stepped up when some guys proposed the fight. "

 

-Stepped up knowing that he could have ended some one's career. Would you not fight fiercely for your well being?

 

yes.

 

like i said.

 

he wasn't exactly an advanced wing chun player.

 

he didn't know what to do,

 

not because of wing chun's failings

 

but

 

because of his own failings in not knowing all of wing chun.

 

-I will concur to a midpoint on this matter. Neither of us know the details, and neither of us know how good Lee really was with Wing Chun...but in studying it, it does seem incomplete, and even before studying Lee I felt that something was missing in everything I read or spoke about involving the arts.

 

 

 

"looks like we have another worshipper in our midst"

 

-Looks can be deceiving, the frailest opponent can be the bane of a thousand warriors. I worship only my god. I hold Lee's philosophies in high regards as they work for me, they help me find myself. I came here to help learn of other ways and to absorb what is useful and wise. I did not come here to offend anyone either.

 

"Look like we have another "degrader" also. "

 

-Degrading? I've shown nothing but respect to all martial artists here and in the physical world. I've degraded no one, nor will I.

 

 

 

"i call him a worshipper.

 

part of the intent is mockery.

 

part of the intent is to sneer. "

 

-Who have I mocked??? Sneer??? And I'm supposed to be the degrading one?

 

"i don't even care but at least offer good debate.

 

i haven't gotten any of that yet. "

 

-That is your opinion. It seems that you simply do not agree with me though, as my debate is strong, as is your own.

 

"in fact, all i've seen so far is what every other person who falls in the 'worshipper' catagory gives when such topics come up."

 

-If I was a worshipper, then would I not be content to stay as I am? Would I really come here to reflect with other people? If I felt that every word Lee ever spouted was true, would I really care enough to debate with you right now? No.

 

Honestly, my intent was not to offend anyone, and I don't want any flame wars starting here. We have conflicting beliefs, fair enough. I came here to learn and hear your opinions, hearing the degrading of such a great man's skills just set me off a bit. The degrading of ANY martial artist's skills sets me off, as they are not easy to gain.

 

I do realize that I've been speaking of Lee quite a bit...I'll try to bring up more of other things from this point...but still, I cannot bear the insult of any accomplished martial artist, especially one who is not alive to defend hiw own name!

 

So I apologize for any offenses taken, let this end here and now so we can continue our martial journies.

[Rick]

He wasn't calling u a degrader JKD, he was talking about Drunken Monkey... Come on boys, grow up, honestly... JKD might use a lot of Bruce Lee quotes and it might get tiresome sometimes, but each to their own right?

 

Linda Lee Cadwell was in a docco saying that Wong Jack Man spent most of the fight retreating from Bruce and Bruce had to chase him down.

 

Can someone clarify for me when he EVER called himself a wing chun master? Book, documentary? anything.

 

Finally i heard that he died from a cerebral edema caused by adverse reactions to cannibis - which he had been taken to hospital for before. I thought he was taking his lady friend to a movie set or lunch or something.

 

RIck

[GhostlySykanRyu]

My now third apologies to you martial man, it may take me a while to get your context style down, as that seems to be the source of most of our conflicts

 

And I'll decrease the quotage...

[47MartialMan]

My now third apologies to you martial man, it may take me a while to get your context style down, as that seems to be the source of most of our conflicts

 

And I'll decrease the quotage...

 

That quite alright JKD, I seen many people whom want to degrade someone, or their style/system, or another.

 

This snare gets everyone. There many people with opinions. And they are just that-OPINIONS. Not a right, nor a wrong. If reading the guidelines, there is lot explained. I think this site, per Patrick, have done a good job in maintaing that people do not get "carried away with their opinions"

 

I too, am at fault for offending someone, which per as a martial artist, I do not intend to. Too ways I will agrue my opinion:

 

1.) If I have a different understanding and direly want to understand someone elses.

 

2.) If someone uses theirs to degrade me or the styles/systems that I practice or even admire.

[Drunken Monkey]

Linda Lee Cadwell was in a docco saying that Wong Jack Man spent most of the fight retreating from Bruce and Bruce had to chase him down.

 

i'm aware of that.

 

but then again, you have to be aware that she would most likely defend her husband.

 

i have read in other articles about the fight, that wong jack man was keeping away from where he knew bruce lee, due to his wing chun, would have an advantage

 

i.e close and in his centre.

 

retreating? or playing tactically?

 

depends on who you ask.

 

Can someone clarify for me when he EVER called himself a wing chun master? Book, documentary? anything

 

nope.

 

he never and couldn't in any way call himself a master.

 

and that's kinda the point.

 

he never really got that far in his wing chun training and yet he was able to tell it was lacking?

 

despite him continually 'losing' to a great many of his seniors?

 

if wing chun was so lacking, how did this keep on happening?

 

 

 

Fair enough, though there were witnesses and there are exerpts

 

so how come none of these people can actually agree on anything?

 

no records of how long?

 

no records of anything happening other than wong jack man keeping distance and bruce lee chasing.

 

And you consider any form of fighting proper

 

proper fight as in toe to toe match up of abilities.

 

not what sounds like a schoolyard scrap.

 

It's not a fight I would have taken part in, but much was at stake, and Lee felt the need to teach

 

actually, i think he never expected it to go that far.

 

he was by his nature a very arrogant and boastful person.

 

he started to teach people his kung fu because it got him the attention that his personality craves.

 

unfortunately, the teaching caused a few people to frown

 

which in turn resulted in the fight.

 

he could've backed down and said,

 

"yes i'm sorry, i am not qualified to teach wing chun"

 

and then that would be the end of that.

 

he could've still gone on to develope his jkd concepts.

 

no one could really complain then.

 

after all, it would then be his product.

 

but of course, again, going back to his personality.

 

he would never back down, would he?

 

If it happened, then so be it. Wong Jack Man must have left the target open

 

i mentioned this not because of any construed honour but because taht is the only detail of a decisive hit being made in the fight before what sounds like a ground and pound situation.

 

I will concur to a midpoint on this matter. Neither of us know the details, and neither of us know how good Lee really was with Wing Chun...

 

what details do we need to know?

 

he did not get halfway through his wing chun training.

 

he did not know wing chun like his seniors did.

 

he was consistantly beaten by his seniors.

 

it's simple.

 

he didn't know half of the style.

 

therefore he thought the style was incomplete.

 

(or was all that he said just marketing for his new product...?)

 

y'know, half a cup will always be half a cup.

 

but in studying it, it does seem incomplete, and even before studying Lee I felt that something was missing in everything I read or spoke about involving the arts

 

this is you speaking of your 'experience' in wing chun.

 

also, you have said before that you have never stepped into a place of training before.

 

very little real experience and yet you area able to deduce that wing chun, as well as all other martial arts, is missing something.

 

no offence but we (as in people who train in a dojo, quan, dojang etc etc) see people like you nearly everyday.

 

you read your books and you copy the moves.

 

that's fine.

 

do as you please.

 

but please have the respect (for us who literally bleed to learn the things we do) to not use words like 'learn' or 'study' when the fact is all you did was read about it.

 

while i'm at it.

 

i'm not insulting bruce lee.

 

i never questioned his ability.

 

what i do question is his knowledge of wing chun.

 

once again, i point to wong shun leung.

 

go find what bruce lee had to say about him.

 

what i also do is point out points of contention in the typical bruce lee worshipper's arguments.

 

i guess i could just leave it alone

 

but

 

what good would that do?

 

in my old wing chun class

 

whenever we have a guy who read a lot of wing chun come in

 

we would make sure he gets the worst days of his training life for that first few days.

 

its to get it through to him that all the reading in the world means nothing.

 

sure he knew how to 'do' the forms and all that

 

but when a real beginner can hit, control, take down and generally embarrass the guy using pak sau, punch and step; three little things,

 

well, it makes him realise how little he really knows.[/i]

[47MartialMan]

And Dm "struts" again

[GhostlySykanRyu]

And you're calling Lee an egotist? You continue to insult him personally, using the mere fact that he was an actor in another attempt to diminish him!

 

"also, you have said before that you have never stepped into a place of training before"

 

-I also recall mentioning that I have sparred often with experienced martial artists as well.

 

"but please have the respect (for us who literally bleed to learn the things we do) to not use words like 'learn' or 'study' when the fact is all you did was read about it. "

 

-Dont'e be so full of yourself, I've applied my skills. You know practically nothing of me. You don't know how intensely I train or how many hundreds of hours I've put in. Your "superior" ways are growing old fast. I tried to end this...and this is what happens.