boxers and gloves

[wing chun kuen man]

DrunkenMonkey,

 

By traditional wing chun I mean traditional wing chun that has not been "modified" and that has its lineage in mainland China. I appreciate that there are other branches of traditional Wing Chun on the mainland that vary slightly from one an other. Also, I can even appreciate the fact that Hong Kong Wing Chun is referred to as traditional as well by many of its practitioners, because, despite having been "modified" by Yip Man, it has kept its essence. Personally I would say, that it is very possible that what he taught in Futshan was more traditional than what he taught in Hong Kong, as he took out various techniques from his Hong Kong version. That may be "the difference" that you referred to. I suppose the same could be said of Funakoshi´s teachings in Okinawa as opposed to his teachings in Japan. What do you think is the more traditional karate? By the way if someone has copyrighted "Traditional Wing Chun" then good for them, however it does not make our lineage of wing chun and the way we train it any less traditional. Also, I think it is not practical to name the gran master or the last recognized "big cheese" every time I mention that I do Wing Chun. I will stay with "traditional wing chun" thank you.

 

Dit dai jow. My sifu who has been doing hand and leg conditioning for many years has not suffered any crippling affects as a result. His own grand master who is much older than him does not suffer from any ailments associated with such conditioning. I have mentioned this fact before in this thread. You guys should pay more attention to the posts when you read them. By the way, my sifu´s gran master does not have this status in wing chun only but also in shaolin five animals and Lohan among various others , most if not all of which involve iron palm training as a part of their mastery. Howeve, we are only taught the wing chun style. The type of injuries that this linaments prevent and protect from are mentioned in my previous posts - basically bones and joints deterioration from long term conditioning. Have a look at the video I recommended. Again, I will say that you are not obliged to believe me nor Morio Higaonna and nor many other masters who use such linaments, independent of the names they use for them.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

...by grand-master i was talking about the accepted head of style (or actual name of style)

 

i.e yip man, pan nam, lee sing, yip chi keung, gini lau etc with respect to sifu

 

or hung fa yee, fut sau etc with respect to styles' given names.

 

i'm surprised you are reluctant to do this, especially seeing as this is the 'traditional' way to talk of the style you are learning....

 

anyway.

 

i was told that you prevent long term damage by doing the 'conditioning' exercises properly.

 

the dit dar jow helps with the healing, which in turn means we can train more, which means we get 'faster' results, which means we get less injuries.

 

however, the long term result isn't because of the dit dar jow.

 

it is because of how we train.

 

My sifu who has been doing hand and leg conditioning for many years has not suffered any crippling affects as a result

 

my point (looking at things with a rational mind) is that because he has been using the stuff for a long time already, he doesn't actually know, and neither do you know, that if he hadn't been using it, he would have injuries on his hands.

[wing chun kuen man]

Drunken Monkey,

 

I am beginning to think that your lineage of kung fu is White Warlock Wing Chun Kuen - where the sticky hands stick forever. You just don´t want to let go do you? And, by the wayI have aready given you details of my Wing Chun lineage when you asked for it in another thread. I hope that you remember them, because I am not going to give them to you again.

 

I will present my style the way I choose and I don´t need you to tell me how to describe my branch of Wing Chun. Maybe you don´t like me to call it Traditional Wing Chun, but I do, and I think that it is the best and most practical way to describe the Wing Chun that I practice in a public forum, and that is how my sifu describes it, in general. You said it is a "personal gripe" of yours, then control it. That is what kung fu is all about , self control. By the way, you don´t even list your MA style under your name, but what is that got to do with me, you are your own man and you can present yourself anyway you choose. Show me the same courtesy.

 

Dit da jow linament. Let me explain yet AGAIN (that damn fluoride) - In my Wing Chun school we use dit da jow linament to treat bruising and soreness for the SHORT TERM and to prevent ailments associated with LONG TERM conditioning exercises. This means that with the type of conditioning exercises that we practice short term bruising and longterm ailments are an EXPECTED cosequences and for this PURPOSE that we USE our dit da jow linaments. That is what this (our) linament is FORMULATED for. You can call it herbal medicine, chinese medicine or kung fu medicine. It does not matter, it has its PURPOSE and was not invented yesterday, nor were the iron palm exercises that we regularly train. That means there are expected side effects (through centuries of experience) of these training methods, and that is where the dit da jow comes in and my sifu considers its use important enough to provide it free of charge to anyone in the school is in the iron palm level of training.

 

One more point, we do train the right way, as I suppose Morio Higaonna and many like him do as well, but even so the linament is there to PROTECT against longterm damage as well - obviously, if one trains the wrong way by punching solid objects until his hands are bloodied ,etc. (DUUH!) - nothing will to prevent long term damage to the limbs.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

...again with the condescending tone...

 

don´t even list your MA style under your name, but what is that got to do with me

 

well, mainly cos most people here know what i do and have done.

 

and i don't like the way people judge you based on your style.

 

which is why you are going to present your style, you shouldn't burden it with tags such as 'traditional', 'classical', 'modern', 'ulitmate', 'real' etc.

 

my gripe is not with you per se, more like those who like to add things to the name of the style.

 

wing chun is wing chun.

 

karate is karate.

 

the differences that do exisit are within the various schools.

 

therefore, lee shing's wing chun, is different to jiu wan's wing chun,

 

shotokan is different to isshinryu.

 

like i said earlier and in case you missed it.

 

you really should stop taking things so personally.

 

these comments, whilst directed at you (because you are the one in the discussion), are also for anyone who reads this.

 

someone asked for something to prevent/help injuries.

 

you suggested dit dar jow.

 

all i added was that you shouldn't put too much faith in the stuff.

 

you have the benenfit of belonging to a school that 'has' experience in using the stuff.

 

not everyone does and not everyone can get acces to one.

 

i went on to point out that these things work or do not work according to people and their bodies.

 

these are things people should be aware of.

 

you presented dit dar jow as a singular thing being able to heal and prevent.

 

the simple point is, it isn't.

[wing chun kuen man]

Drunken Monkey,

 

I did not know what your style was until you told me. In my opinion it is good to list your style so that people who do not know you (and there must be new members signing up in the forum all the time) can see where you are "coming from". Actually that is one of the only real references we have about the people who post here. You choose not to and that is fine by me.

 

I never said wing chun is wing chun and karate is karate. I will repeat, I believe putting "tag" of traditional is the best way to describe my style of wing chun in a public forum. This "tag" is not an opinion it is a fact. "Traditional" kung fu or even karate has a lot of meaning for someone like me.

 

Don´t put "traditional", "classical" and "modern", in the same category as "ultimate" or "real". The latter ones are opinions and the former ones are descriptions - or at least they should be unless they are used deceptively. I know that Shotokan karate is differente from Isshinryu and I think that any one who lists or says that he practices karate should mention the style as well. Just like I do. I practice kung fu and my style is Wing Chun and yes it is traditional. Remember, that Shotokan has its variations as well. So where does one stop. If someone lists his style as lets say Bam Bam Suzuki Shotokan karate, it will not make any sense to me. If he lists it as traditional or modern Shotokan, then I will have a good idea what he practices. If I have any more questions, then I will ask him personally. Anyway, point taken, however, I will stick to traditional for now.

 

Dit da jow. Throughout my posts about the this linament I have made referrences to "my school", "my sifu" "our formula" "real"dit da jow, and "authentic" dit da jow. Somewhere, I also mentioned that I have never bought this linamente commercially . In another place I mentioned that there are formulas that you don´t get in the internet or in "cook books". I quoted Morio Higaonna saying something to the effect that in china the ingredientes for these linaments are kept secret [ he did not say the effectiveness of these linaments depended on who the users are and their bodies, either]. However, based on the little bit of knowledge that I possess on chinese medicine I would guess that they could be "fine tuned" for an individual based on their chi and inner body heat, but that is not the point. We are talking about general medicine here and not prescribed or specially formulated for individual use medicine.

 

All these referrences and statements point to the fact that there are special dit da jows and there are not so special dit da jows. The specials ones heel and prevent and the not so special ones (that apparently anyone, including White Warlock , can make) do a good job on disinfecting and healing bruises (short term). Again it is all there in my posts. Now, I believe that if you are using the authentic stuff then it will generally work. Rather like or maybe even more so than many modern and "scientifically" researched medicine/remedies that seem to work for some and not for others (but minus their side effects, but that is another topic for another forum).

 

Wing Chun kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

...and because you are so insistant on defending yourself and arguing, you are totally missing the point of what i have been saying.

 

i think the problem that warlock has with the things you say is because well, you don't actually know what is in your dit dar jow and what it actually does (beyond what you have been told).

 

i can also see it being annoying that whilst you mention other people who use similar things (which may or may not bare any relation to the thing you use), you yourself do not actually have much knowledge of chinese medicines and related things.

 

the problem with using tags like:

 

traditional, classical, modern, real and authentic

 

is that they are most often used by those who wish to differentiate their style and in doing so imply that it is better.

 

after all, who can argue with 'real traditional kung fu'?

 

i mean, doesn't it sound better?

 

that's why i picked out the line from your previous post

 

If you really do practice kung fu and if it is a real kung fu

 

because it is implying that you are practicing something real where-as we are not.

[wing chun kuen man]

Drunken Monkey,

 

You don´t seem to be reading my posts. I was trying to say that the reason that I describe my style as traditional wing chun because IT IS. That is all. The rest is in your head and has to do more with your own insecurities regarding what you practice then anything implied by me. Kung Fu is a traditional martial art and traditional kung fu is authentic kung fu. The only thing that I am implying is that it is not modern "kung fu". But I will say again, I believe it is the best description for the art that I practice, at least in a public forum. If that intimidates anyone then it is their problem.

 

One more thing:

 

"..after all who can argue with 'real traditional kung fu'"?

 

You said that not me.

 

"if you practice kung fu and.......",

 

That statement was not directed at you but to that master of "iron skull" kung fu. The reference was to "inform" him of the relevance - to our 'discussion'- of the fact that kung fu techniques were passed down from generation to generation, and not wether his or your style is real or not. Don´t put words into my mouth. I know my style is real, and that is enough for me. I hope that you know wether yours is real or not. It is your problem if it isn´t and your blessing if it is. However, if you are happy with your kung fu style then it is not even a problem.

 

I believe that I have explained what "my" dit ja jow "actually does" only about a dozen times in this thread, thus demonstrating to you that I know what it is used for. You don´t want me to actually repeat it again do you? Ok, I will - it treats bruises and soreness and protects against longterm ailments associated with such conditioning. It has worked for my sifu and for his grand master, who have been training iron palm for many years.

 

I think that you guys are the ones missing the point. What you don´t want to admit is that there are realities and concepts that you do not know and/or don´t understand.

 

[Don´t worry though you are in good company because a lot of the "great minds" in the west don´t understand such concepts either, and cosequently deny their existence. ]

 

So what do you and your pseudo-scientist friend WhiteWarlock do? You demand "proof" and "evidence" and try to create an "intellectual" argument while all the time DENYING that you are actually arguing - it is rather clever. For you guys it is not enough that some of these linaments work and and have been used for generations by many kung fu and karate masters, and that some of these medicines are formulated by experts in chinese medicine, whom did not get their formulas from the internet. You "experts" did not even know or chose not to, that such linaments existed, I recall something to the effect of "very,very few preventative medicine in chinese medicine", in one of your posts, and "nothing is going to prevent ailments associated from conditioning exercises....." in one of that "dud", White Warlock´s posts.

 

[Just a thought, could it be that White Warlock and his brother, the physicist come hippie were typing the posts together. I have this image in my head of his brother inserting the "dudes" and the "buds" into his posts, just like any self respecting hippie would. It is just a funny image in my head and I don´t mean it as an offence, absolutely not.]

 

When I proved that such linaments existed by referring you to a second, "outside" source, Morio Higaonna, 9th dan master of Traditional (his description not mine - but feel free to criticize him), Goju-Ryu Karate ,instead of "growing" you keep at it. No I am not an expert in Chinese medicine, and nor have I claimed to be and neither are you and neither have you claimed such talent - if I was, I would be practicing it - and nor am I expert in Western medicine. I believe that you may have some knowledge in this area that may be superficial and then it may not be, but you ain´t no expert. I don´t demand a list of ingredients every time I need to take a couple of pills either (which is not often, thank god), for them to work is enough for me . And believe you me you are not likely to be given the ingredients of such linaments that easily, that is why "..ingredients of these medicines are closely guarded secrets", Higaonna´s words not mine and as a result I cannot tell you the ingredients and actually I would not even if I knew. As you read this post, White Warlock is combing the world wide web searching for Higaonna´s email, soon he will be sending Higaonna an email, telling him why his traditional chinese linament does not work - I wonder if he is going to address Higaonna as sensei or will he use the more scientific terms "dude" and "bud".

 

By the way my sifu knows the ingredients, that much I know. If he ever wants me to know, I am sure he will tell me.

 

The POINT in question should not be MY knowledge of such medicines, but the knowledge of the people WHO FORMULATE and PREPARE this medicine, because that is what in the end DICTATES wether such linaments work or not. And of course they worked for my sifu and his grand-master and his masters before him. That is the POINT. I merely said that in our school we use such linaments and that they are used by other such as Morio Higaonna. Wether Higaonna´s formula is the same as ours is not relevant in this discussion the relevant factor is its EFFECTIVENESS.

 

If it hasn´t done anything else this thread has improved my typing much more than my martial arts knowledge.

 

Ok, if you want me to repeat the relevant information YET AGAIN, please don´t hesitate to leave me a post. Otherwise just read this post again or refer to my previous posts which basically basically state the same facts with a couple of entertaining differences of course.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[White Warlock]

Gheinisch/Greg,

 

With respect to you, and to others, i let it drop. However, this gentleman seems to think my silence is some sort of invitation for him to toss my name (or handle) around and spew out insults. With all due respect, the guy is trolling... and i see no reason to sit idly by while he misinterprets my silence.

 

So, with all due respect to you and others in this community, i resume.

That is what kung fu is all about , self control.

 

Actually, that is not what it is all about, but since you believe such is the case... it does cause me to wonder why you have so very little.

 

wckm, let me make this very clear before i continue with this post. You have indicated in this thread that you are not knowledgeable about herbs, about martial arts in general, about wing chun, conditioning, 'Western' medicine, the scientific community, or even about flouride. So, with all due respect, what is the purpose of your continued arguments? Is it you wish to make it very clear to us that which you do not know?

 

Well, we get it. You don't know... let's move on.

 

Yes, your tone is exceedingly disrespectful and it encourages others to show disrespect towards you, even when it is not otherwise in their nature to do so. As to your inferences, i can do nothing about your lack of respect for me or others. That is clearly not a problem i can address in mere posts on a board that allows anonymity.

 

As to the topic... it is lost in the miasma of hostilities you have exhibited, due to your opting to perceive said posts as personal affronts, rather than as what they were intended to be: informative, advisorial, and otherwise.

 

To perform a quick rundown of the issues, we first have the topic at hand... that of boxers and gloves. In it, a discussion arose regarding that of wearing gloves and the harm associated with not wearing them. At a point, you recommended dit da jow. This recommend was not quite contra-indicated, but was given a yellow flag by at least one other poster. Said yellow flag was perceived, by you, as an affront to your person. Thus ensued a myriad of flawed arguments to validate your initial recommendation.

 

It was then that i addressed the flawed arguments (not right, not wrong, merely flawed), and also showed concern regarding the blind trust many display in subjecting the human body to various plants (herbs), externally or internally. My comments were not intended to be an affront to you, although i may have come out a bit strong (which i tend to do at times, and for which i apologize). It was intended as a means to try to ensure you maintain a 'reasoned' discourse and that the 'yellow flags' not be arbitrarily dismissed merely because something worked for one person, or even a few.

 

The fact of the matter is, herbs are plants. Some plants can kill you, others can get you very sick. If you have an allergy to a particular plant, it might as well be hemlock, for it will have the same fatal effect, especially if taken internally. When you grab a batch of 14 or so herbs, which you did not test previously on your person, and then subject your body to them either regularly in small doses, or once in large dose, you could cause significant damage (external/internal, acute/chronic, fatal).

 

Also, herbs, just as any drug, do not work the same for all persons. Everyone's metabolism and chemical makeup is different and it is these differences that determine why herbal concoctions will not work for all persons.

 

When you visit a doctor, and if your problem is properly diagnosed (diagnosis is the real problem here, not medicine), then the doctor may prescribe medicines to address your problem. However, if the medicine does not treat your problem effectively, the doctor may need to prescribe a different medication. That's not to say he misdiagnosed (although that is definitely a possibility), but that not all medicines will work equally with all people. In fact, rarely a violent allergic reaction would occur with a particular medicine.

 

But here are the things that need to be understood. The majority of Western medicines are actually extracts. Extractions of various chemical compositions, from plants, animals, and even minerals. With a medication, you are given a very high dose of 'one' particular type of chemical composition. With an herbal concoction of only 10 herbs, you are given a mild to medium dose of as many as 200 chemical compositions. And while a side effect or allergic reaction may be less severe with herbs, it is also far far more likely. As well, the specific benefits / side-effects to an extracted single chemical composition is far more specific and predictable, whereas herbs are not.

 

So, while you may sit there and tell us that your sifu has suffered no ill effects, what is to say this is the truth? His liver may, in fact, have suffered due to the body's response to some herbs included in his dit da jow. Or not...

 

And to close. wckm, i have been studying for quite a long time, possibly longer than your sifu. I don't know you. You don't know me. Refrain from insulting or posing derogatories.

 

- WW

[Drunken Monkey]

...i have no issues with what i train in and what i have trained in.

 

in fact i am pretty happy with what i know which is why i don't feel the need to embelish the name of the style in which i am most fluent, with any superfluous tags.

 

the reason that I describe my style as traditional wing chun because IT IS

 

well, that i would say, is purely opinion.

 

i could argue that there are versions of wing chun and by that i mean certain lineages, that are more traditional.

 

thereby rendering your style, a modern variant.

 

and that is the point i am trying to make.

 

traditional isn't a fact when it comes to wing chun.

 

i would say that traditional wing chun would be the techniques and forms that cheung ng (the recognised and historically documented originator of wing chun) taught to the people on the red junks.

 

everything that came afterwards is a modernisation.

 

i am beginning to get tired of this.

 

you are time and time again, stating things as facts with no real basis.

 

all i have been doing is pointing to 'flaws' in the things you say and you time and time again take them to be personal challenges, using the same 'stated facts' as counterpoints.

 

i.e there is no progression.

 

you really should control the tone of your posts.

 

as the topic has continued, you have progressively gotten more insulting.

 

if i had been the same towards you i can accept it but i haven't.

 

as many others before me have said, i do not know you and you do not know me.

 

that does not mean that i do not have to show you the respect accorded to you.

[gheinisch]

White Warlock, Thank You for showing restraint it was noticed and appreciated. It seems we haven't been able to get back on the topic here even though there has been some good discussion here on all sides about varying opinions and differences in beliefs. Good discussion is what this forum is all about but I feel this has gone on long enough and nothing new or helpful would come from letting it continue. With that said I'm going to lock this thread. Thank you all for your contributions to this forum. I and many others look forward to your posts on other topics here at KF.

 

Greg