boxers and gloves

[White Warlock]

Agreed Vito.

 

wckm, I iterate what i wrote at the end of my last post:

Okay, i leave you to your postings and won't ask you any further for you to clarify anything you post in the future. I'll toss it up to someone who just wants to have their opinions known, but doesn't really want to share insight or information that may have been gleened over the years.

I will stick by this and not ask you to clarify anything you post in the future.

 

I will, however, respond to some of your comments.

This is turning up to be a contest on WHO ARGUES BETTER and not who knows more or who has what opinion.

I suppose that is part of the problem. You seem to believe it is a contest... i don't.

As I said before, I don´t have time to sit here and argue for the sake of argument.

Then don't.

 

Stop arguing. Instead discuss. No need to try to win. Instead, grow. What you have learned thusfar isn't the endall of all things. In fact, if they are 'unsubstantiated' thoughts, there's really no need to cling to them so defiantly.

 

 

1) The dit dai jow that WE use in our traditional Wing Chun training is for short term injuries/sourness etc. and for long term prevention of ailments associated with conditioning exercises. If you don´t believe that such a linamente exists then don´t . If you are curious then go to point number 2.

I know what dit da jow is. I used it and even made some myself. So what? Does that make me an expert? No. Does it make you one that you use it? No.

 

So... what's your point of arguing this? I mean, you really don't know what you're talking about, right?

 

Well then... how about reading these articles, written by someone who 'is' an expert? John Crescione:

 

http://www.wingchun.org/txt/misc/jow.html

 

http://www.wingchun.org/txt/misc/jow2.html

 

Oh, and if you want me to give you a breakdown of each and every herb listed... do your own research.

 

Seriously though, i can do that for you if you want me to. No biggie to me. It would be good rehashing for me, since i looked into all of this ages ago... before the internet made research so friggin' easy.

 

The thing is, I think it's important to 'understand' what it is you are subjecting you body to, lest you accidently kill yourself based on 'faith' alone. For example, i don't use red tiger balm because i'm allergic to capsicum. Knowing what your body tolerates, and doesn't tolerate, goes hand in hand with learning what it is you intend to subject your body to.

 

Wckm, that's really where i'm coming from with part of my earlier discussions. Without understanding WHY it is used, HOW it works, even IF it works, you're going on blind faith. Which, unfortunately, is the reason many practitioners continue to study things, past on from generation to generation, that are completely and utterly inapplicable in a real confrontation... but that look good when practiced in slow motion.

 

It's because they fail to question.

2)Morio Higaonna and his video. ... If he uses such linaments then believe me so do many others at his level of knowledge and below.

Ahh, okay. So what? Of course he uses it. I never said dit da jow was garbage. Only that you were attributing powers and abilities to it that it truly does not have.

I never said "you must believe" anything. Or have "faith" in something.

Umm, well... actually... you did.

What I am saying is that I believe in the way certain things are based on my own knowledge and experience (and who knows one they I may "unlearn what I have learned).

And that's part of where i was having a problem. You weren't stating this 'knowledge' or 'experience,' nor have you presented yourself as an expert in the field (in fact, you stated otherwise). You were merely saying, "it is so, i believe it, so begone." Well... what am i supposed to do with that? Follow blindly someone who presents himself as all-knowing, all-condenscending, and me... a mere peon... could not possibly have the capacity to understand such divine knowledge as you, yourself possess?

 

Pfft.

What I have said above finishes our real argument/discussion. The RELEVANT facts and opinions are all there.

Umm.. what facts? Opinions maybe... but facts?

I am lucky that I even remembered the inteviews, and only because the subject matter had interested me. Again if you don´t believe it, good for you.

If you can remember the interviews, vaguely, and yet not anything else, how can you sit there and be so dang sure you recall it correctly in the first place?

 

I think that's part of my point there wckm. I mean, when i state that children are/were being forced into slavery, beaten, mutilated and killed in western Africa, to produce cocoa beans for chocolate producing companies here in the U.S. and abroad, at least i can point the inquisitive in the right direction... even though i only saw one documentary on it... eight years ago.

 

If it's important enough, you would remember the details. If you wish to use such things as validation to your arguments... wouldn't it be logical to argue with 'concrete' data? I mean, there's two routes to take here. One of educating, and the other of 'influencing.' I'm for educating, not building a cult following.

 

Something to consider.

My reasoning may be fallacious to you again that may have to do more with your perception of things than with my reasoning.

Umm, no. Fallacious reasoning is actually quite clearly spelled out and courses on logical thinking are offered at most colleges and universities. Fallacious reasoning isn't an issue of perception. It is an issue of presentation of argument, of fact, and of communicating. It is common, and is applied most heavily in political arenas... and in marketing.

 

But, please understand... it is not a logical way of thinking.

The 3rd time I went there I did not find some of those behaviors so strange. May be you should travel more, or if you do travel a lot maybe you should try "see" more.

Nice try, no cigar. Dude, you don't know me. Really, you don't. I've travelled, but never to just visit. I became a resident of whatever place i was at, not a spectator. I've studied cultures, not merely from some silly set of textbooks, but from being 'part' of that culture.

 

But, why should i have to justify myself to you? Why? Well, because you just did yet one more attack on me... stating that i am somehow culturally unaware.

 

What's with you anyway? You're consistently trying to paint me as something i am not, in order to argue that 'not' part. Well dude, i'm not culturally unaware... so how about trying to actually FIND a flaw in me, rather than MAKE THEM UP?

 

It's interesting though. I mean, what does being 'culturally aware' really have to do with this discussion? That other cultures are more into fallacious reasoning, and therefore fallacious reasoning is an acceptable way of both thinking and communicating?

 

Well dude, it's not. A=B does not equate to A=C, no matter what language or culture you belong to.

I know that fluoride is harmfull and you obviously know that too. Why isn´t any one doing anything about it. Nowadays, I see fluoride added to mineral water and even to chewing gum. So what is happening. Why aren´t there any tests being carried out by the scientists.

Hmm, i could have sworn i already addressed this... but... okay, i'll bite.

 

There have been substantial new tests on flouride (btw, the earlier test was not committed by researchers, as i already stated, and it was not tested through a 50 year period. In fact, if i recall correctly, the test lasted only a few years, or less). The problem is not the tests, nor the evidence to support the allegations that flouride is unhealthy. The problem, as i indicated earlier, is marketing. Corporations have a helluva lot invested in their products, whose use of flouride, in minute quantities, is presented as a beneficial whitener and cleaner. They've been pushing this stuff on people for decades.

 

Let me give you a better example of the problem. It took decades to finally get tobacco industries to start paying people off for cancer cases. And why? Because a report slipped into the wrong hands, and those wrong hands... a reputable scientist that was hired by the tobacco industry to dispute allegations of tobacco being hazardous, was unwilling to play the game. In fear of his life, he nonetheless presented evidence and thus began the cascade of evidence, provided by other scientists that were previously in fear of their life.

 

Dude, it's not the 'good ol' boy' being the problem here. It's big business commiting crimes, and not wanting to lose a profit. Therefore, they're willing to commit more crimes, against reputable scientists, to protect their investments. Even though tobacco and flouride are not outlawed, or even considered illegal, they are nonetheless contributors to health problems. Tobacco industries have been sued countless times in the past, but it wasn't until documentation was presented, that they started actually losing in court. Nowadays, they are having to payout billions of dollars in settlements.

 

The toothpaste corporations don't want that same nightmare in their court. So, what do they do? What did the tobacco industries do? They hire spin doctors. Professional public relations firms, whose job it is to spin things around, discredit reputable professionals, create extremist rallies that make the whole thing look like outrageous 'hippie communes.'

 

There are quite a few excellent books i can direct you to that would disturb the hell out of you. My brother, a physicist and professor at a local college, brought these books to my attention... and they were quite the eye-opener.

 

Of course, now you're going to say, "ahh... your brother is a physicist! That explains everything!"

 

My response to that would be that i respect him, both as my brother and as a very 'informed' man. Yet he is far more a 'hippie' than a scientist. In fact, he spends much of his spare time growing herbs in his backyard.

 

But see... why is it i have to justify my life, or the lives of people i know, to someone who simply doesn't want to communicate logically?

 

No reason whatsoever, and i'm done with this tangent.

By the way, your claims of knowledge regarding medicine and herbs are to me unsubstantiated. You have not shown me any proof that you know anything about medicine and I believe that the story of your sig with thyroid cancer is an invention because you haven´t even proven to me that your sig even exists.

 

.....

 

Having said that I think you probably do know a fair bit about medicine and herbs and yes to story of sig also sounds like its true.

True, but then again, nobody asked me to substantiate any of it. And, if they did, i would gladly oblige (being i have such an immense ego).

 

As to my sig other with thyroid cancer... it was inappropriate of me to present this in my arguments. But, moreso inappropriate of you to attempt to counter argue with it. Bad taste on both our parts. Let us please refrain from going there again, even if to try and prove a point.

We are in a Forum for gods sake. Some times you just have to take someones word for it especially if it is a personal opinion based on experience and personal perception.

Sounds like a decent argument, but it is incorrect. If i have an opinion on something, i don't have to substantiate my opinion. However, if i state that something does this or that... it is no longer an opinion, but a statement of attribution. When you claim that leeches heal people, it is not something we should be taking at face value... especially if such can actually, possibly, be harmful to others.

 

Really, do you think it is an opinion to believe the world is somewhat round? Or that drinking strychnine is a good way to get rid of rabies?

 

One is information, based on scientific evidence. The other is ignorance, or misinformation... that will kill you. Neither are opinions and many of the foundation comments you presented in various parts of your earlier postings are not opinions either. Although, you did present some opinions at a later time, but... unfortunately, those opinions were presented in a substantive fashion. I.e., you presented your 'opinions' as if they were evidence to support your earlier claims.

 

Supposition posed as evidence.

Anyway, I think I have written enough.

May you enjoy and grow from your continued studies.

[wing chun kuen man]

Here we go again "bud",

 

1. In our traditional school of Wing Chun Kuen we use dit dai jow linaments for bruises and sourness etc. and to prevent long term ailments associated with conditioning exercises. Herbal linaments for such purposes are used by other martial artists, for example Morio Higaonnna 9th dan Goju-Ryu Karate. To varify or substantiate my claim you may purchase and borrow his video on makiwarra training which contains the relevant information.

 

2. I do not and have not made claims of magical or mystical powers and attributes as to its effects on my health or training. For me it is just a weird smelling herbal medicine that we use for short term healing/treatment of bruises,etc. and long term prevention of ailments associated with conditioning exercises. Morio Higaonna does the same with his herbal linamente and does not claim that it has any miraculous effects.

 

So far you are the only one that has made references to special "powers", "mystical" and "magical" properties. You should reread my posts to absorb what I have been saying and re-read yours as well to see that you are being rather silly and immature.

 

As I said before I don´t need you to believe me nor are you as you put it "supposed to follow me blindly" . Maybe what you are supposed to do is what every one else in this thread has done, that is they have given their respective opinions and/or have made their statements and period. Again, I will repeat I don´t really care for your opinion, you care, and that should be enough for you . The FACT is linaments are used for above purposes (1 and 2) by myself and my fellow wing chun practitioners our sifu and his own grand master who by the way is not a cripple.

 

Now that should be simple enough to understand, "dude" unless in your area the drinking water contains above average fluoride levels, or do you habitualy swallow your toothpaste, as well? I mean how difficult is it for you to understand a couple of simple statements? I.E. 1 and 2 above.

 

As I said before you are arguing for argument´s sake and accused me of doing it when I made this statement before.

 

If you have any more doubts about what I said then look at points number 1 and number 2 again and again....that is all I am saying. If you think that the linaments that we use don´t work, then good for you and don´t worry because you are not the one using them. If I die using them, then don´t worry because you did your best to save me.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

 

PS. Interesting info on the toothpaste companies but don´t you think that as well as paying spin doctors and PR agents they may have a couple of "great minds" in their pockets as well, or maybe even among their share holders, just a thought (i.e. I can´t substantiate it). PLEASE, take the time to look up Doctor Hardy Limeback, you will find it extremely interesting.

[White Warlock]

It's too bad you didn't opt to read those two articles i presented.

 

wckm, i'm not trying to be nitpicky, despite you assertions to the contrary. However, you repeatedly gloss over the fact you are saying dit da jow serves as long term protection. It doesn't. It is a liniment for short-term injuries. Particularly, bruising. So, when you say it is for long term protection, i view that as an inference to mystical properties.

If you use REAL dit dai jow then its main affect will be to help in the healing of your bruises and to prevent long term damage from conditioning exercises.

 

...

 

the formula of dit dai jow that we use is both for treating short term injuries and for long term protection.

 

...

 

and long term prevention of ailments associated with conditioning exercises.

Nothing is going to prevent ailments associated with conditioning exercises, except refraining from doing conditioning exercises, or wearing appropriate gear (hand wraps, gloves, etc).

Morio Higaonna does the same with his herbal linamente and does not claim that it has any miraculous effects.

I checked it out. He doesn't attribute 'long term protection' or 'prevention' as properties or benefits of dit da jow.

Now that should be simple enough to understand, "dude" unless in your area the drinking water contains above average fluoride levels, or do you habitualy swallow your toothpaste, as well? I mean how difficult is it for you to understand a couple of simple statements?

Insults again?

 

Anyway, you do realize this whole discussion on dit da jow is actually a hijack of this thread, don't you?

[wing chun kuen man]

WhiteWarlock,

 

This discussion may be a a hijack of the thread, but you are the one who started it. You are the one who started the insults as well, with your pompus attitude and [don´t?] know it all comments, even if in your own "great mind" you thought you didn´t.

 

Morio Higaonna´s video. You are the one making false statements.

 

Morio Higaonna is talking about longterm protection or prevention, when demonstrating the use of the linaments and explanining them, he states "......prevent any problems that may occur in life as the practitioners get older". If that does not refer to prevention and longterm protection then I don´t know what does. Earlier on in his demonstration, he refers to its property of "the prevention of deterioration of joints in old age".

 

In the same segment of the video Morio Higaonna demonstrates an internally taken medicine as well, which heals the internal organs from any damage that may have occured from training and also to prevent deterioration in old age. Here is another quote that you will like, "traditionally in China the ingredients of these medicines are a closely guarded secret". Just like Coca Cola I suppose, but where Coca Cola can cause harm in the long run these medicines are supposed to help the user. Of course they are, because they are medicines, right? And I know that possibly they will work for some and not for others, just like extensively tested and researched western medicine.

 

One more thing. There are fomulas for these type of linaments that you may be able to get in the internet or may be even "cook books" but there are others that you cannot and that is a fact.

 

It is all there in the video, so why don´t you go back to it and instead of "checking it out " watch it another 4 or 5 times. And read my posts again. It might sink in after a while.

 

You will see that all I said was I use the linaments and explained their effects and backed it by my knowledge based on what I have learnt from sifu and my training in traditional Wing Chun. To further my point I presented an "outside" example and that was Morio Higaonna and his video and somehow you managed to "misinterpreted" that as well.

 

I am beginning to think that "Iron Skull" will be a better definition of your Kung Fu style.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Luckykboxer]

one of these days im going to make a big cup of coffee, grab an entire box of biscottis and sit down adn read this thread from begining to end.

[wing chun kuen man]

LOL.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[gheinisch]

Why don't we all just agree to disagree and let it come to a conclusion. You both have some good points. Let's get back on topic. I would hate to see this thread locked because of a back and forth disagreement between two good posters. Thanks in advanced for your cooperation.

 

Greg

[Drunken Monkey]

..so um, how do you know that your dit dar jow (or anyone else's version) does indeed prevent long term injuries?

 

also, what types of injuries does it prevent?

 

or is this going to be an even bigger can of worms?

 

um, this is a personal gripe of mine and i mean no offence

 

but

 

could you stop using the tag 'traditional' when you talk of your wing chun.

 

for a start, 'traditional wing chun' is used to refer to a specific style:

 

i think it has been 'trademarked/copyrighted'

 

(what's the difference?).

 

just cos it's from china doesn't mean it is any more or less traditional (even within yip man's school several versions of the forms were taught

 

AND you have major differences between what he taught in futshan and hk).

 

just 'wing chun' will do.

 

if you want to be more accurate, giving the name of your grandmaster (or last recognised 'grand-fromage') would be enough.

[matbla]

what can i put on knickles to make them feel better or make them stronger

 

1)what to put onb knukels

 

2)where to buy the stuff

 

3)how much

 

from mattb lake matbla@capital.net

[matbla]

what can i put on knickles to make them feel better or make them stronger

 

1)what to put onb knukels

 

2)where to buy the stuff

 

3)how much

 

from mattb lake matbla@capital.net