boxers and gloves

[White Warlock]

one particular mix of jow for me might not be suitable for use for you.

 

that is why i'm always dubious when someone says that there is ONE jow that everyone can use for ONE specific purpose.

Just as not all prescription medicines work for everyone. The body's tolerances to foriegn substances varies substantially per individual.

 

Most of us know this as allergies. Penicillin cures some people, and kills others. Glucosamine is dangerous for many people, because what is found over the counter is usually extracted from shellfish... which many people have allergies to. I, for one, purchase 'vegetarian' glucosamine (extracted from vegetables), just in case.

 

And then there is also the tolerance factor. Your body may eventually counter-balance the regular intake of a foriegn substance (herb, pill, etc), making it ineffective after a time.

 

And... we have the evolutionary aspect of foriegn bodies. Viruses and bacteria for example. Biologists are constantly being put under the gun to find newer, more effective antibiotics... because bacterias have an incredibly short lifespan, and thus can radically evolve in a relatively short period of time. Every evolution of a bacteria demonstrates a higher tolerance to one or another antibiotic.

 

In fact, we have the great example in nature, with the 'rough-skinned newt' and the 'garter snake.' The rough-skinned newt has in its body enough poison to kill a thousand men. But, why would it need to such a powerful toxin? There's nothing out there 'big' enough that hunts it.

 

Well, the answer lies in their greatest predator, the garter snake. The garter snake hunts rough-skinned newts, and has built up a tolerance, in the form of antitoxins, to the toxins emitted by the newt. Thus, the newts, through evolution, have slowly increased their level of toxidity, while the garter snakes, in continuously pursuing the newts as their main source of nourishment, have slowly increased their level of antitoxin.

 

A chemical arms race.

 

(slight tangent)

[wing chun kuen man]

White Warlock,

 

First of all the people in this forum seem to be obsessed with magic and mystical things. I did not say anything about these linaments being magic or mystical. You are the one that introduced this interesting and somewhat out of place concept. I was just talking about medicine.

 

The first point. If you did not know, there are bogus dit dai jows and there are real ones. This a fact and I am not trying to win arguments with you. I don´t know you and you agreeing and disagreeing with me does not play any role in my life.

 

Just because things are passed down from generation to generation does not make them necessarily wrong either. If you really do practice kung fu and if it is a real kung fu then you should know that many of the techniques that you are studying have been passed down from generation to generation as well.

 

What you say about merchants "creating needs" for their products, herbal remedies in this case, is happenning all over the world with what we call modern medicine. Some of which work and some that don´t and even others that create more problems then benefits, including addiction, and boy does that create need. However, when we do need them we do our best to find something that works for us. I still believe that, what you are actually saying is that generation after generation of kung fu masters were idiots to use herbal linaments. Don´t you think that even if they were idiots they would eventually wake up after suffering generation after generation of crippling side effects??? Now who is trying to win an argument?

 

Yes there were and are traditional kung fu practitioners who were and are trained in the five excelences. Do your research. It may not be common nowadays and but nor is a real blackbelt holder who has really earned his belt, or so it seems. I would say that in the old days many practitioners did not have the time to learn the 5 excellences as they were too busy trying to survive and stay alive. However many did, especially those studying at various temples (not necessarilly Shaolin either). The monks had a reputation as healers, however I don´t think even they dared walk under ladders, but they did throw a pinch of salt in their food once in a while.

 

About my health problems, well that is my business. Well if I knew what the medicine was I would not have needed to go to the chinese herbalist in the first place, I would have prepared it myself. The problem with you is you automatically disbelieve because these concepts are not in your belief system and that is fine. Had I told you that my local doctor cured some medical problems you would not think twice. I mention chinese medicine that has existed for thousands of years and is used by millions of people in the Far East as well as in the west and you jump out of your pants. If you don´t think that chinese medicine works, then good for for you...just don´t tell me about it.

 

My friend´s health problem. I mentioned what it was. He was complaining from those pains for the best part of 1 and a half years. His doctor had given him a lot of pills for months they did not work. I suggested to him to try out a chinese herbal center that had a good reputation. The rest you know. I don´t remember what the exact problem was all I know that it had to do with his digestive system. Had he been cured with a couple doses of pills, you would not be such a pain in the b%$#. But because we are talking about something that you don´t believe in you automatically assume that the results were achieved because of other factors. But again you are free to believe whatever you wish. But I don´t want to know.

 

About acupuncture. I saw a couple of interviews in the 1980´s, or were they in the early 1990´s with some respected scientists/doctors who said that "there is no proof that acupuncture works" or something to that effect and also somethings about it all being in the mind,etc.(Could they have been relatives of yours by any chance). If I remember correctly somebody even warned about its dangers. Don´t ask me their names or their qualifications or if they played with themselves when they were young or if they had animal fantasies. I don´t know. It was a long time ago. Now were they "great minds"? Probably not. However, they were probably diciples of the "great minds" that control the scientific community. I am sorry but that is how science works (my view). If the big fish of the period thought that acupuncture worked then the small fish would agree with them and sing the party line, thus keeping their reputations and jobs intact. At the time they did not because it was not "the accepted view". That is "great minds" for you. Anyway I do not want to discuss science in a martial arts forum. We ARE here to give our views and that was MINE. Feel free to disagree but please don´t tell me about it.

 

Fluoride. The reason that the fluoride got into our toothpastes and in some cases in the water system in the first place is that out scientific community or various of its members declared it safe and beneficial (I am sure a "great mind" was involved there somewhere). Do your research.

 

Morio Higaonna. This is the most relevant part of my post as the rest was irrelevante thanks to your provokation. Get your hands on his video on makiwara training see what he says about prevention of problems from conditioning exercises.

 

Do your research. You may even choose not to believe him after all some clever Mexican farmer who lives in China may have sold him the magic potion. But again don´t tell me about it. If I spend any more time answering irrelevant and * posts I may end up missing my training sessions and my martial arts skills would suffer. You wouldn´t want that to happen to a fellow martial artist now would you? I have wasted enough time on this post. Maybe you have time to wast but I don´t.

 

Finally (thank god), the scientific world . I am not anti-science, I appreciate its role in human progress but I do see its shortcomings and limitations. Thus I am not misrepresenting anything and I am not misinformed. I stated MY VIEW regarding the aspect of closemindedness. And my basis? The by-products of the closedmidedness:

 

People like YOU.

 

Thank you.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[White Warlock]

Wow, that's some pretty heavy-handed fallacious reasoning you got going on there wckm! I seriously don't believe i've seen that much false logic in one post since... well since i argued religion with a fetus that wanted to marry his twin brother!

 

Humor aside, let me make it clear i'm not attempting to attack you. When someone points out fallacious reasoning, it looks like an attack, but it is not meant to be one. In my case, i'm merely attempting to show that the conclusions you present are based on false assumptions. Nothing malevolent or deviant about it.

 

Anyway, here i go again.

 

 

First of all the people in this forum seem to be obsessed with magic and mystical things. I did not say anything about these linaments being magic or mystical. You are the one that introduced this interesting and somewhat out of place concept. I was just talking about medicine.

You were giving abilities and properties to dit da jow that are unsubstantiated and, frankly, go against anything even remotely biologically possible, at least for a human being. The body does a pretty good job of healing, but it is not perfect and there is always going to be a little bit of scar tissue each and every time you get injured.

The first point. If you did not know, there are bogus dit dai jows and there are real ones.

 

I understand what your point was, but your point was in response to my point, which was in reference to herbs being attributed to properties they do not possess.

 

Please understand this. You changed my argument, and are continuing to argue your point, which is based on a misrepresentation of what i stated.

Just because things are passed down from generation to generation does not make them necessarily wrong either.

Agreed. However, reversing my statement does not dismiss my statement. So the purpose of this is to detract from what my statement as intended to communicate.

If you really do practice kung fu and if it is a real kung fu then you should know that many of the techniques that you are studying have been passed down from generation to generation as well.

Just to clarify, the 'iron face kung fu' listed to the left is a joke. I.e., mutilate your opponent's fists with your face.

 

Anyway, this is a switch argument. It basically is saying that, "Joe is healthy, therefore John is healthy." Why? Because they're both men? Because their first names start out with the letter J?

 

To clarify, let me present to you something that creates conflict with your present argument.

 

"Jews pass on, from generation to generation, that pork should not be eaten."

 

And so? So what, right? If you look at it, it sounds like there's nothing there, but the original reason why they were directed not to eat pork was because ages ago, people died horribly from eating undercooked pork (trichinosis). Nowadays we know what causes this, and instances of trichinosis are exceedingly rare in industrialized nations. A rule created to protect a group of people from, what was at the time, an unknown evil. And yet, this same rule is continues to be passed on from generation to generation.

 

So, basically, my what i'm saying is... so what? Just because something is passed on from generation to generation doesn't mean it is valid, or valid nowadays. It should not matter whether it is passed on from generation to generation.

 

What should matter is whether you know WHY it is passed on, HOW it works, and IF it works. In this case, many herbal concoctions are passed on because of tradition, and not necessarily because of effectiveness. Moreso, those who prescribe these concoctions, in most cases don't know how these herbs work, either individually, or in conjuction with others. In addition, the IF is a major factor. IF it doesn't work, they try another concoction, the person dies, or that person (as in the case of many occidentals) doesn't come back again. Instead, all you get are the success stories, whose healing may or may not have been attributed to the herbal concoctions.

 

Dude, this is how products are sold on infomercials. Those who vouch for it are put on television. Those who tried and failed... a profit margin statistic. The profits are obtained not from the successes, but from the failures.

What you say about merchants "creating needs" for their products, herbal remedies in this case, is happenning all over the world with what we call modern medicine.

 

No, i'm sorry, that is not the case. Saying it so simply does not make it so. Modern medicine is developed through an extensive process of testing. The end result is an incredibly detailed breakdown of the chemical components, the biochemical effects of these 'specific' components on various human (or animal) cells, the effects on certain bacteria, and/or many other 'specific' target testings.

 

Modern medicine isn't a shot in the dark, as herbal medicines have been presented. Now granted, many modern medicines were derived from herbs and plants that have been effective in ancient times, but the specific beneficial chemical components of said herbs have been extracted, allowing for a more precise, and far more effective application. This said, i'm not dismissing herbs altogether.

 

 

Some of which work and some that don´t and even others that create more problems then benefits, including addiction, and boy does that create need.

Hmm... so opium, hashish and cocaine... are those medicines?

 

Nope, sorry dude. Good try though.

I still believe that, what you are actually saying is that generation after generation of kung fu masters were idiots to use herbal linaments.

That's nice. Saying i said something doesn't make it so.

 

I never said that, nor did i imply that in any way whatsoever. Therefore, you're trying to paint me as an antagonist, thus making it easier to argue my points, by not arguing them at all... and instead focusing on me... the antagonist. Ad hominem, de facto.

Don´t you think that even if they were idiots they would eventually wake up after suffering generation after generation of crippling side effects???

Case in point.

Now who is trying to win an argument?

 

Umm... you?

 

Again, the switch. I'm not trying to win, just pointing out the false logic you've been presenting in these arguments. Why? Because in applying this false logic, you have neither invalidated, nor validated any of the arguments posed by yourself or anyone else.

 

In short, you're basically saying what you later say in this post. That it is a faith issue. However, it is not.

Yes there were and are traditional kung fu practitioners who were and are trained in the five excelences. Do your research.

Umm, actually, i don't have to. You're the one that made the assertion, not me. I simply stated you presented it as a means to substantiate your argument and i'm saying that you haven't provided the evidence to claim that they can serve as substantiation of your argument.

 

I know that may not have made much sense, but try and reread it a few times.

It may not be common nowadays and but nor is a real blackbelt holder who has really earned his belt, or so it seems.

so it seems.

I would say that in the old days many practitioners did not have the time to learn the 5 excellences as they were too busy trying to survive and stay alive. However many did, especially those studying at various temples (not necessarilly Shaolin either).

Again, you make the same assertion, yet do not provide evidence to support your assertion. That is actually essential, if you're going to use this assertion to substantiate an argument or stance.

The monks had a reputation as healers, however I don´t think even they dared walk under ladders, but they did throw a pinch of salt in their food once in a while.

Hehe

About my health problems, well that is my business. Well if I knew what the medicine was I would not have needed to go to the chinese herbalist in the first place, I would have prepared it myself.

Okay, but did you ask them what it is they provided, or did you just ingest it on 'faith?'

The problem with you is you automatically disbelieve because these concepts are not in your belief system and that is fine.

And there it is. What i mentioned earlier. You now argue that it is based on faith, on a belief... and that because i don't believe, i must therefore be a heretic (which, btw, is not the case... but it is interesting that you have come to such conclusion based on what little i have provided in argument as to where i stand in all of this).

Had I told you that my local doctor cured some medical problems you would not think twice.

On the contrary. I would ask exactly what i've been asking here. I would ask what it is you were treated with and then i would perform a bit of research to educate myself on the treatments provided. No joke. I do this all the friggin' time, and you would be surprised how much i know about modern medicine AND herbs. In fact, most doctors are.

 

To argue my point, my sig other was recently diagnosed with thyroid cancer. I spent the last week reading over 300 pages worth of information on thyroid cancer and am now reasonably well versed in it. When i met the post op doctor, we had an indepth discussion on the various post operative concerns and i was able to alleviate many of the concerns my sig other had.

I mention chinese medicine that has existed for thousands of years and is used by millions of people in the Far East as well as in the west and you jump out of your pants. If you don´t think that chinese medicine works, then good for for you...just don´t tell me about it.

And here is where you assume i said Chinese medicine doesn't work. I did not say that. I said many HERBS, used here in the the western world and in the Eastern world, are attributed effects that they do not provide or possess. With your above comment, you are again putting words in my mouth, since attacking what i didn't say is far easier than attacking what i did say.

Had he been cured with a couple doses of pills, you would not be such a pain in the b%$#.

 

Just to make it clear, one reason i'm being a pain in the ..., is because i'm am having an issue with your frequent use of fallacious reasoning (otherwise known as false logic). Fallacious reasoning isn't an issue of right or wrong, but an issue of coming to a conclusion through illogical means. You could very well be stating something is right, but the means by which you obtain this statement... is not.

 

"I am rich, therefore i am caucasian." Now, i may be rich and i may be caucasian, but one does not equate to the other. Do you understand what i'm getting at?

 

Another reason i'm being a pain in the ..., is because i want you to substantiate your arguments. Some of them sound interesting, but you're not providing anything other than, "you must believe" as substantiation. Faith shouldn't be a prerequisite to postulating a reasonable argument and if you're going to make a claim, such as, "melatonin invigorates the pancreas," i would definitely like to see some evidence to support this claim.

But because we are talking about something that you don´t believe in you automatically assume that the results were achieved because of other factors. But again you are free to believe whatever you wish. But I don´t want to know.

And again... and again, this belief thing. We talked about it already, so i'm not going to torture you with the same discussion i posed above.

About acupuncture. I saw a couple of interviews in the 1980´s, or were they in the early 1990´s with some respected scientists/doctors who said that "there is no proof that acupuncture works" or something to that effect and also somethings about it all being in the mind,etc.

Well, you aren't providing anything to work with here, so we're still dealing with unsubstantiated claims. You haven't provided insight into these 'so-called' respected scientists/doctors.

 

I could easily argue, without providing evidence in support, that i've witnessed a multitude of reports and videos of neurologists indicating that there is indeed an effect with acupuncture. Are you going to take my word for it? And, if not, then why should i take your word for the opposite claim?

 

Anyway, we're not talking about acupuncture. This was your tangent, not mine. The ongoing discussion was about herbs. Specifically, at least when i stepped in, it was about dit da jow.

(Could they have been relatives of yours by any chance).

 

An associative ad hominem inference. The truth of the matter is, we'll never know... because you never provided evidence of their existence.

If I remember correctly somebody even warned about its dangers. Don´t ask me their names or their qualifications or if they played with themselves when they were young or if they had animal fantasies. I don´t know. It was a long time ago.

Well then, why bring it up? I could make the same exact argument that i've seen grand and super scientists stating everyone should get needles stuck into their skulls.

 

Do i have to support this? Not if i don't care whether anyone believes me or not. And, if i don't care... then why post in the first place?

 

Exactly. Because such a tactic is used to try to substantiate your claim, by presenting 'professionals' that cannot be disputed, simply because they have not been produced. I.e., a means to 'win' an argument, as opposed to reaching for the truth. Or the facts, if that's your bag.

Now were they "great minds"? Probably not. However, they were probably diciples of the "great minds" that control the scientific community. I am sorry but that is how science works (my view).

I'm glad you added "(my view)."

 

You're entitled to your opinion. But, please, do realize that everyone has an opinion, just as they have ... those things they sit on. Also realize that there is a huge difference between that of an opinion, and that of an informed opinion.

If the big fish of the period thought that acupuncture worked then the small fish would agree with them and sing the party line, thus keeping their reputations and jobs intact. At the time they did not because it was not "the accepted view". That is "great minds" for you.

In some circles, such things do exist, but to assume that all men and women behave in this manner, merely because they work in the scientific community, is grossly unfair.

 

But, again, you're entitled to your ... opinion.

Anyway I do not want to discuss science in a martial arts forum. We ARE here to give our views and that was MINE. Feel free to disagree but please don´t tell me about it.

Ahh, i see. So you're basically saying you just want to say what you believe and then walk off? Not interested in learning or teaching others? Just want to pose your opinion?

 

Okay... have fun.

Fluoride. The reason that the fluoride got into our toothpastes and in some cases in the water system in the first place is that out scientific community or various of its members declared it safe and beneficial (I am sure a "great mind" was involved there somewhere). Do your research.

Sorry to say bud, i did do my research. In the 1940s, a test was conducted for the U.S. Army, on a community in Ohio. It was determined through the test that flouride, added in small quantities to the drinking water, whitened yellow teeth. It was this "military-sponsored" test that started it all.

 

However, the test was not conducted by qualified researchers. In addition, the test subjects were too few, the test area contaminated, and the testing period too short. By all 'standard' testing procedures of the time, and now, the report should have been tossed before it hit the table. But, you know what they say about military contracts, eh?

 

In truth, large quantities of flouride actually causes yellowing of the teeth, as well as brittling of the bones. What caused the teeth of the test cases to turn from yellow to white, was their 'diet' was adjusted. They were not receiving ample vitamins prior to the test.

Morio Higaonna. This is the most relevant part of my post as the rest was irrelevante thanks to your provokation. Get your hands on his video on makiwara training see what he says about prevention of problems from conditioning exercises.

Do you have a link?

Do your research.

Umm, you're starting to sound like a broken record on this. hehe

I have wasted enough time on this post. Maybe you have time to wast but I don´t.

Hehe...

Finally (thank god), the scientific world . I am not anti-science, I appreciate its role in human progress but I do see its shortcomings and limitations. Thus I am not misrepresenting anything and I am not misinformed. I stated MY VIEW regarding the aspect of closemindedness. And my basis? The by-products of the closedmidedness:

 

People like YOU.

lol, that's funny. I'm far from a scientist, but it's still funny. An ad hominem as a closing statement.

 

Okay, i leave you to your postings and won't ask you any further for you to clarify anything you post in the future. I'll toss it up to someone who just wants to have their opinions known, but doesn't really want to share insight or information that may have been gleened over the years.

 

I understand not everyone is into growth and learning.

[Drunken Monkey]

...hmm, i bet some of you are wondering how i'm managing to be so 'restrained' these days....

 

anyway.

 

here i go.

 

I would say that in the old days many practitioners did not have the time to learn the 5 excellences as they were too busy trying to survive and stay alive

 

most of the old masters came from rich families which afford them the luxuery of not having to work.

 

this meant that they had lots of time on their hands to learn frivolous things such as martial arts, caligraghy, poetry, medicine and other virtues as suggest by confucius in his books.

 

monks had a reputation as healers

 

no they didn't.

 

there were individuals within the temple that were able to heal/sort out minor problems but most of the time, it was one of the occasions when they could 'go down the mountain'.

 

what you are actually saying is that generation after generation of kung fu masters were idiots to use herbal linaments

 

this is kinda my point.

 

they would have used some kind of linement but it wouldn't have been dit dar jow and it wouldn't have been that by itself.

 

i've mentioned the name before.

 

dit=fall

 

dar=hit

 

jow=alcohol.

 

the purpose of this stuff is for aiding in the recovery of things resulting from falling or being hit.

 

it isn't a preventative medicine.

 

in fact, there are very, very few preventative medicines in chinese medicine.

 

especially those studying at various temples (not necessarilly Shaolin either)

 

martial arts study was not a common thing in temples.

 

the majority of the smaller temples were more or less 'outposts' where people could come and 'give thanks' (and the rest were just money grabbing centres).

 

If you really do practice kung fu and if it is a real kung fu then you should know that many of the techniques that you are studying have been passed down from generation to generation as well

 

i think this line says a lot......

[gheinisch]

OK guys, so far everyone has been pretty respectful in stating thier difference of opinions here. Lets keep it that way please. Everyone on this board has an opinion that may not be agreed upon by all, and stating so is OK as long as it doesn't resort to personnel attacks and taunting. Let's all play nice! Thanks

[wing chun kuen man]

Thank you KF Sensei,

 

White Warlock, please re-read my previous posts a few times maybe you will eventually understand what I am saying. As I said before, I don´t have time to sit here and argue for the sake of argument. This is turning up to be a contest on WHO ARGUES BETTER and not who knows more or who has what opinion.

 

Let me make it easy, the facts (yet again):

 

1) The dit dai jow that WE use in our traditional Wing Chun training is for short term injuries/sourness etc. and for long term prevention of ailments associated with conditioning exercises. If you don´t believe that such a linamente exists then don´t . If you are curious then go to point number 2.

 

2)Morio Higaonna and his video. As I stated before I believe that this will settle the key issue in our discussion. I don´t have a link for him but as great mind like you will know there is something called an internet google search or a general search. Try it out. Anyway if you want to see the video then here is the full name: "Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate-Do Makiwara Training starring Morio Higaonna" it is a Panther Productions release. If he uses such linaments then believe me so do many others at his level of knowledge and below.

 

3) I never said "you must believe" anything. Or have "faith" in something. Don´t bring religious conotations into the discussion. What I am saying is that I believe in the way certain things are based on my own knowledge and experience (and who knows one they I may "unlearn what I have learned). I believe and it works for me, period. And, yet again I will say to you: YOU BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT ,you are a free man.

 

What I have said above finishes our real argument/discussion. The RELEVANT facts and opinions are all there.

 

Now a few quick points. We go through life acquiring knowledge. This happens through personal contact, college/university, radio, television, movies. Then we try and remember what we have learnt and make some sense of it , and that is hard enough without remembering the sources for everything we have read or heard. For you White Warlock to ask me to remember who the hell the people interviewed in a 1980´s tv documentary is just too much. I am lucky that I even remembered the inteviews, and only because the subject matter had interested me. Again if you don´t believe it, good for you.

 

My reasoning may be fallacious to you again that may have to do more with your perception of things than with my reasoning. Who knows maybe it is a cultural thing, ie one man´s logic from one culture is another man´s logic from another culture. When I travelled to the Far East for the first time I found some of the things they did and the reasons they did it strange, unjustified and unnecessary, superstisious etc. (I smelled "fallacious reasoning" somewhere), I did keep an open mind. The 3rd time I went there I did not find some of those behaviors so strange. May be you should travel more, or if you do travel a lot maybe you should try "see" more.

 

Fluoride. Ok lets discuss science,"bud". What you are saying is that, based on a flawed military test, which involved the participation of scientists,unqualified as they may have been, hundreds and thousands if not millions, of people are drinking harmfull fluoride contaminated water for the best part of 50 years. Whatever happenned to all the testing a medical research that you mentioned which is supposed to erase any doubts of health risks regarding any medical products. I am talking about today not then. Or do the scientists also trust the mumbo jumbo of medicine passed down from generation to generation.....LOL. I know that fluoride is harmfull and you obviously know that too. Why isn´t any one doing anything about it. Nowadays, I see fluoride added to mineral water and even to chewing gum. So what is happening. Why aren´t there any tests being carried out by the scientists. All this may prove that "Great Minds" are like cops, there are none around when you need them, or maybe they are in on the scam, who knows? Other research also suggests that fluoride is also an intelligence suppressant, which right now I cannot substanciate, but if true will explain why governments are sitting on their butts turning a blind eye. If you are interested feel free to investigate. Also try to make a web search on a Dr Hardy Limeback, Head of the Department of Preventive Dentistry for the University of Toronto, very interesting. Now that guy could be a "great mind".

 

By the way, your claims of knowledge regarding medicine and herbs are to me unsubstantiated. You have not shown me any proof that you know anything about medicine and I believe that the story of your sig with thyroid cancer is an invention because you haven´t even proven to me that your sig even exists. By the way, I have not seen substantial proof of wether people in this forum practice the MAs that they say they practice and if their rank is really what they say it is.

 

SEE HOW EASY it is to doubt and create unecessary argument. We are in a Forum for gods sake. Some times you just have to take someones word for it especially if it is a personal opinion based on experience and personal perception. Again, I am not saying believe what I am saying but maybe just maybe believe that I am sincere in what I say and accept the fact that maybe just maybe there are concepts that other people( not necessarilly me) may know and practice that are alien to you and it is not alway easy to justify these concepts thru a forum, to someone who has no understanding of them or who has a different perception of things. Having said that I think you probably do know a fair bit about medicine and herbs and yes to story of sig also sounds like its true.

 

One more quick point. Chinese history has had its share of turmoils, famin etc. Knowing this fact will no doubt make it easy for one to understand the fact that some people were too busy surviving- fight wars, finding food, working , hiding etc. - for them to have had time to master the five excellences.

 

My closing statement was not only aimed at closed minded scientists but also those who use them as a reference and an "intellectual" base for their own inflexibility.

 

Anyway, I think I have written enough. I have put in the few relevant facts and participated in an what is mostly an irrelevant argument for a forum and for what was my original point and just in case you missed it : IN MY TRADITIONAL KUNG FU SCHOOL we use herbal linaments to treat the side effects of conditioning and to prevent long term damage. Also, these kind of linaments are used by other martial artists. Checkout the Higaonna video. It may help your "growth and learning" in the area of hand and foot conditioning.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

....why do you have to be so condescending in your posts?

 

i have one problem with your posts.

 

all i have done is point out 'flaws' in the things you have said.

 

as such i have done my best to explain and pehaps lead you to another line of research.

 

what i have seen over and over again is basically you saying 'i am right, you are wrong'.

 

your only concession to this was

 

You may have a point in your last statement.

[wing chun kuen man]

Drunken Monkey,

 

My last post was for White Warlock, not for you and he is condescending too in his posts and turned mole hill (a few statements) into an "intellectual" mountain (encyclopedia Britannica). But don´t tell him that I said that he might get upset and bit me up with his big brain, and as you know I am not yet in the weapons stage of my Wing Chun training. Seriously though, I am open minded and I am here to learn and discuss facts. Today I asked my sifu about the other jows that you mentioned and he said that there are many for differente ailments. However, he stressed that what we use is dit dai jow and its purpose which I have mentioned before.

 

Any way this post is for you just to clear up any misunderstanding.

 

I know that many masters in the old came from rich families and many that didn´t, but you say most did. Can you substantiate that? That White Warlock has got me doing it too now. Nevermind. My point is that during times of war and turmoil which are part of China´s history, it is not easy to fullfil longterm commitments such as traditional MA studies as well as the other 4 excellences. As you probably know the rich are not immune from war and social turbulance either - eventhough they are usually better protected that is unless they are the object of the turmoil in the first place. But that is all I was saying, I am sure many did learn the 5 excellences and that many didn´t. That is all.

 

I have been lead to believe that in the shaolin temples the healing arts were part of the monks´curriculum as a part of the five excellences. I have also read about some monks who would leave the temples and enter the outside world practicing medicine as healers (not brain surgeons) in villages and towns. I will go back and look into it again however.

 

Preventative medicines do exist in Chinese medicine. I don´t know wether they are common or not, but I can name you at least 2. One as I have mentioned before,which started this damn argument is the dit dai jow that we use in our training which treats local bruising and prevents long term problems associated with conditioning exercises. You may call it by another name but we call it dit dai jow. The fact is that it is a linamente and it is used for the above purpose. If manage to get the Morio Higaonna video you will see that it is used to prevent long term damage from makiwara training. He also drinks another herbal mix to prevent internal organ damage. It is an interesting video if you are into hand and foot conditioning.

 

The other preventative medicine is Chi Kung (health exercise)practice. Although it is used to cure sickness as well, its main purpose as far as health is concerned is prevention. This is according to my readings. Obviously there is a martial side to chi kung (oops! can of worms), but that is not the point here.

 

You are right to say that MA practise was not common in temples in the old days. I did not say they were, but there were temples other than the Shaolin and Wudang where Kung Fu was practised. And this is true even today. Infact, my sifu will be travelling to China in a couple of years to further his kung fu studies and will be staying in a temple for 2 years. All this will be "arranged" for him by his Grand Master who now resides in China, and guess what, the temple he will be staying in is not a Shaolin temple.

 

Yes, many kung fu "techniques have been passed down from generation to generation". You said this line says a lot. If you mean that many of the old techniques do not work and as a result this devalues the dit dai jow knowledge , then I say that you are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that most if not of the old techniques do work if trained right (I am not talking about competition wu shu btw), problem being the time span involved in mastering them and the lack of good sifus. However, I am sorry if you meant something else.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

 

PS. I am open minded, but at the same time I have my opinions, strong as they may be, bases on what I am taught and my own research. I don´t mean to be a know it all, I am just defending my point of view.

[Vito]

holy crap you guys... lets just try and make this clear and easy. if you consistantly bareknuckle a bag, no matter what crap you put on your hands before or after... you will end up with messed up hands. dit jao, bengay, cow *, doesnt matter. you bare knuckle a heavy bag enough, you will suffer damage to your knuckles. if you think otherwise, youre an idiot, dont say you werent warned.

[wing chun kuen man]

Vito,

 

Thanks for the warning. But I would like to think that my training is balanced and therefore we don´t bare knuckle the bag "consistantly" , I just sometimes bareknuckle the wooden dummy, but not all the time of course.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man