boxers and gloves

[White Warlock]

To add,

 

Many of the old-school training methods were acceptable, because they dedicated their lives to just one pursuit... war.

 

Such is not the case nowadays. Few of you would be able to participate in these discussions, had you 'conditioned' your hands as they did then.

 

Why? Well gee... typing maybe?

[wing chun kuen man]

Just like to say one thing. There is good chinese medicine and bad chinese medicine, just like there is good western medicine and bad western medicine. Consequently there is good dit dai jow and bad dit dai jow. Again if you don´t think that good liniments exist it is your right and good for you. There are masters today that have used and still use dit dai jow to protect themselves. Maybe you know more then these experts, who knows anything is possible. Maybe someone should tell them that what they have been using for the past 30 years is only alcohol with useless herbs. Or could be or just maybe you are WRONG and these masters are right.

 

Everyone in our School uses dit dai jow when training iron palm. It is provided for free.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[White Warlock]

Just like to counter this one thing you mentioned.

 

What's to say they are experts? Their fighting prowess? If so, what makes their fighting prowess a credential to understanding the pharmaceutical applications of herbs, or the biological effects of such on the human body? And, if not... if their expertise is in knowing the various 'handed down' applications of various herbs, does this 'hand me down' info also provide them knowledge of medical, biological, biochemical, and pharmaceautical proof?

 

Various herbs have been looked into by some of the greatest scientific minds in the world and most of them have been determined to be bogus. Not all, mind you, but most. A friend of mine, who works in a notable pharmaceutical company, said to me that the problem with herbs, is that they are a 'mix' of various chemical elements. Some of those elements are not necessarily healthy, while others are. The combination of these chemicals 'sometimes' creates a biological shift in the normal functions of the human body, but that these shifts are not necessarily a good thing and that anything, regardless of whether it is prescribed or over-the-counter, that 'changes' your body's normal functions... should be avoided, unless there is an actual medical need.

[wing chun kuen man]

When you say not all of them have found to be bogus. Then you are talking about good dit dai jow right? Also one point I have to make and that is if a lot of this knowledge was handed down then it is logical to assume that the reason for this was that they worked unless of course you are saying that generation after generation of kung fu masters and their diciples were complete idiots. I just can´t imagine the scene where one crippled kung fu master that has lost the use of his hands and fingers recommending useless dit dai jow to the next generation of his diciples. By the way traditionally the learning and mastering kung fu involved learning the 5 excellences that included medicine. By the way, traditional chinese medicine has throughout the years helped me with various health problems. A friend of mine was cured of very bad stomack and digestive pain that he had suffered for one and a half years. For over a year he was given pills and more pills that did not work for his problem. After he started taking chinese medicine his problem disappeared in around 2 weeks. And lets say he was taking his medicine "with a pinch of salt". I remember that he had not even finished his course of herbal medicine.

 

Some of the greatest scientific minds in the world would have you believe that accupuncture does not work, or have they changed their minds nowadays. Some of these "great minds" don´t think that the artificial sweetner aspartame, and fluoride products are harmfull substances where other research has shown that they are intelligence suppressants.

 

One of the advocates of dit dai jow is the Goju-Ryu 9th dan master, who conditions his hands in the traditional okinawan way (ouch!). He apparently does not use the okinawan variety. He gets his sent to him from China by kung fu master friend of his. Will someone please go and tell him (to his face) that he is an idiot and that this product does not work and that he has been wrong to use it for the past 50 years and that if he is in doubt he should ask any of our western great minds and we do seem to have too many nowadays......lol. They can tell him that the fact that after so many years of strong hand conditioning he has no medical complaints then he is wrong and it is all in his mind, and that he is actually a cripple.

 

Maybe I am being a little silly and I am sorry if I am going over the top but I would like to make my final point and that is that western science and the great minds that belong to it refuse to acknowledge things that they do not see in their "logical scientific world" or in their "logical" theories. I.e. if they don´t understand it, then it does not exist. I am not antiscience or anything like that. I am just lets say anti-closedmind science. Anyway, I have drifted.

 

Like you said some herbal remedies work and some don´t . So if we are conditioning our hands lets try and find the ones that work. That is fair, right?

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

There are masters today that have used and still use dit dai jow to protect themselves

 

again.

 

this shows a misunderstadning of what dit dar jow is/was used for.

 

it IS NOT a protective substance.

 

it is a 'remedy' for bruises and sprains and other joint/bone pains.

 

the only mention of it being used as a protective substance is in the legend of fong sai yuk who was reputedly to have been bathed/soaked in the stuff since he was a child (but this is just legend.....)

 

what they have been using for the past 30 years is only alcohol with useless herbs

 

i never said that.

 

i was just pointing out that the ingredients of the stuff isn't anything special and is in fact quite ordinary (and i think the stuff we have at 'home' is slightly older than 30 years....

 

maybe you are WRONG and these masters are right

 

he might be a master of kung fu but are they masters of chinese healing?

 

they are not the same thing and they are not usually taught together, especially in the last 30 years.

 

just cos he was told to use something (and so he knows has been using it for 30 years), does it make him an expert on what it is and its ingredients/properties?

 

your mistake here is thinking that someone on this forum doesn't know more about dit dar jow than you or the guys who teach you.

 

you are also tking this to be personal attack on you or the guys who teach you.

 

should also point out that whilst dit dar jow isn't the best thing for this sort of thing, there are other mixes of 'medicine-alcohol' (yerk jow) that are specifically for this.

 

that's what really bugs me.

 

most western chinese martial arts places harp on about dit dar jow and that they get it from who-ever master from what-ever chinese town.

 

the point is, it might be good dit dar jow but it is still the wrong stuff to be using for 'conditioning' uses.

 

no-one ever seems to mention these other jows.

 

do i nkow more kung fu than the guys who teach you?

 

probably not.

 

do i know more about the chinese culture, medicines and perspectives?

 

i'll let the guys here tell you the answer to that one.

[wing chun kuen man]

Please re-read my post. Also, maybe I did not make it clear. We use dit dai jow for conditioning and to prevent long term damage. However, if any of us are hurt or bruised during the training we still use it as a short term remedy.

 

About the masters who don´t have medical degrees from harvard or whatever, and the doubts that you have with their knowledge, please feel free to take it up with them personally. I just stated the fact that many use such linaments for conditoning purposes and to prevent long term injury. I even named one of them, Morio Higaonna (karate), I think you can find his email somewhere in the net.

 

Many kung fu diciples and masters even today are taught the healing arts. You would be right to say that this is not very common. Also, if aspirine helps with your headaches, do you need a diploma to recommend it to someone else?

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Drunken Monkey]

i'm not asking for medical degrees....

 

but seeing as you're talking about 'certificates', the chinese government has an 'official' certificate for qualified chinese herbalist/doctors/bonesetters....

 

also, the points i made about the effects of ginseng and lingzhi should have made it clear that centuries old ideas of how 'good' something is, isn't always neccessarily true.

 

I just stated the fact that many use such linaments for conditoning purposes and to prevent long term injury

 

yes, that is what you said.

 

i just pointed out that dit dar jow isn't something that is usually used as a preventative medicine because there are other (specific) jows for that purpose.

 

am i wrong?

[wing chun kuen man]

Drunken Monkey,

 

My sifu does not have certificates but has already helped me (and many other students) with injuries more times that I can remember. For many traditional kung fu sifus and masters this kind of knowledge is part of the territory. I also know that many other masters have oficial certificates and practice healing as a career as well. No problem.

 

"...centuries old idea of how 'good' something is, isn´t always necessarily true"

 

Yes you are right , but it isn´t always necessarily false either and that is where personal experience/knowledge comes in.

 

You may have a point in your last statement, however the formula of dit dai jow that we use is both for treating short term injuries and for long term protection. So, our discussion may be a question of definitions and not wether something works or no. I have seen your description of dit dai jow on products being sold commercially. These products I have never bought or used before. I have managed to always get my hands on linaments made by kung fu sifus and in one case a chinese herbalist here in Rio. Nowadays, my sifu provides dit dai jows free of charge for all students during iron palm training or whenever needed.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[White Warlock]

When you say not all of them have found to be bogus. Then you are talking about good dit dai jow right?

Umm, no. Please refrain from using fallacious reasoning with me. I don't have a high tolerance for it. To me, when someone uses fallacious reasoning, it means someone is not seeking the truth, but trying to win an argument.

 

Dit da jow is a mixture of herbs, some of which serve no purpose, while others do. However, like all things... there is no magic. It doesn't perform miracles, nor is there any 'mystical' qualities about it. Quoting Popeye, "it does what it does, and that's all that it does." To attribute more to it... is disingenuous.

Also one point I have to make and that is if a lot of this knowledge was handed down then it is logical to assume that the reason for this was that they worked unless of course you are saying that generation after generation of kung fu masters and their diciples were complete idiots.

Again, fallacious reasoning.

 

Just because information is handed down from generation to generation doesn't mean they work. It only means they were handed down from generation to generation. Just as tossing salt over the shoulder to ward off evil spirits, not walking under ladders, or avoiding black cats from crossing your path, there are some bits of information... that are just plain bogus. And don't forget, for centuries people were told that circumcision decreased the possibility of penile infections, and yet recent evidence has proven otherwise.

 

Part of the problem with 'most' herbs, is that many of the 'beliefs' on what they do were actually created by merchants. I.e., find a need or create a need for your product. If I grow radishes, what better way for me to sell my product, than to state to my potential customers that radishes are an aphrodisiac? And, if you want to call this ridiculous, this is exactly what a farmer did in Mexico, when his seller abandoned him. Such things happen all the time, and has been happening for centuries.

By the way traditionally the learning and mastering kung fu involved learning the 5 excellences that included medicine.

This is myth, i'm sorry to say. There were those who were educated in various areas, but they were the exception, not the rule.

By the way, traditional chinese medicine has throughout the years helped me with various health problems.

That's good. Beer has helped me throughout the years as well. And your point?

 

You see, this is yet another form of fallacious reasoning. You don't indicate what medicine it was, what health problems they were, or whether every medicinal treatment worked for every health problem. In fact, you don't even know if the problem went away on it's own. Cause and effect are not in your analysis, and 'personal experiences' do not substantiate a cure. Just as a placebo can work for a blind man, so can your belief work for you in taking something that has no actual benefits.

 

In fact, it is your mind that is the most powerful pill. Consider this.

A friend of mine was cured of very bad stomack and digestive pain that he had suffered for one and a half years.

And this is attributed to traditional chinese herbal treatment? What exactly did he take, what was determimed to be the problem, and did he ever get diagnosed? Without this information, can you 'honestly' say that it was the herbs that treated the problem, or the problem simply going away because of situational changes? I.e., if it was an ulcer, a change in lifestyle, and/or eating habits, could easily have rendered a cure. So... how do you attribute his healing to the herbs without knowing what the problem was, and without removing all other quantifiable influences?

 

Exactly...

Some of the greatest scientific minds in the world would have you believe that accupuncture does not work, or have they changed their minds nowadays.

Umm, excuse me. But could you point out who these 'scientific minds' are? Yet another fallacious reasoning. You posed a straw man here. You state there are these 'greatest scientific minds,' and yet ... do they exist? How am i to argue this, when i don't even have the names of these people?

 

I can't fight a straw man. I can't argue this point, because these 'greatest scientific minds' don't exist.

Some of these "great minds" don´t think that the artificial sweetner aspartame, and fluoride products are harmfull substances where other research has shown that they are intelligence suppressants.

Again... same silliness.

 

Anyway, flouride is rat poison. No ands, ifs, or buts. The scientific community knows the potential harm of flouride in toothpaste, but it is not the scientific community that is keeping it in the tube. It's the marketing departments of the various toothpaste producing corporations. Posting, "with flouride" on a toothpaste tube sells, plain and simple.

 

In fact, this particular argument actually works against your postulations. Thank you.

 

 

One of the advocates of dit dai jow is the Goju-Ryu 9th dan master, who conditions his hands in the traditional okinawan way (ouch!). ... Will someone please go and tell him (to his face) that he is an idiot and that this product does not work and that he has been wrong to use it for the past 50 years and that if he is in doubt he should ask any of our western great minds and we do seem to have too many nowadays......lol.

Why? Nobody said it was useless, only that it doesn't have the properties you subscribe to it. It's been stated a multitude of times in this thread that it helps to disinfect and help in dissipating bruises. On the other hand, you say it also mends bones and does dishes.

Maybe I am being a little silly and I am sorry if I am going over the top but I would like to make my final point and that is that western science and the great minds that belong to it refuse to acknowledge things that they do not see in their "logical scientific world" or in their "logical" theories. I.e. if they don´t understand it, then it does not exist. I am not antiscience or anything like that. I am just lets say anti-closedmind science. Anyway, I have drifted.

And here is where you are so friggin' misinformed (or, intentionally misrepresenting things).

 

Science, which you've decided to package all up into a nice neat single concept, is a process of examination, not a system of denial. Unfortunately, your fallacious reasoning (false logic) has allowed you to assume the 'process of examination' posed in sciences is the cause of 'stubborn idiots.' In truth, stubborn idiots exist... and may choose whatever career they opt for... including the martial arts.

[Drunken Monkey]

......then there's alse the case that these things (jows) are a type of medicine that are 'prescribed' based on each individual and their relative state of 'health' (perceived ying/yang balance: i.e level of heat etc, etc) and are normally used in conjunction with more medicines (in the form of 'soups') and foods to eat or avoid.

 

one particular mix of jow for me might not be suitable for use for you.

 

that is why i'm always dubious when someone says that there is ONE jow that everyone can use for ONE specific purpose.

 

generally, the ones that everyone can use are for general things....