sansoouser Posted June 23, 2004 Posted June 23, 2004 http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/kano.html Here's a good article on principles of Judo and ways to handle stronger people. The amateur shoots his hands out ferociously, but lacks any true power. A master is not so flamboyant, but his touch is as heavy as a mountain.
SevenStar Posted June 23, 2004 Posted June 23, 2004 I only skimmed the article, as I'm running late for thai boxing, but it just seems to be talking about kazushi and the principle of yielding. Good stuff. It's not that easy though - that becomes apparent when you watch a shiai...
Luckykboxer Posted June 24, 2004 Posted June 24, 2004 this has the potential to be either a really good conversation, or giant flamefest. I personally am of the opinion that Size does matter. for example when i see articles like the 4 year old girl who got her blackbelt.. I am amazed at what that implies about the martial arts family in general. I am a firm believer that at some weight... i am not sure what that point is... but at some weight, there is too little muscle mass and power to effectively do damage to another individual. I am also a firm believer that at some weight.. once again not sure of an exact weight... there becomes a point when there is plenty of muscle and mass to inflict great damage with little skill or training. if everyone can agree with those two statements, then the rest is rather common sense. as the smaller sized person gets bigger, and gains muscle or strength, they get to a point where the skill starts to be able to use that strength to make a difference.. I do think that all other things being equal a person with less strength must have more skill to defeat an opponent with more strength. Visa Versa... a truely huge person... as they lose muscle mass and strength will need to gain more skill to accomodate. A person with incredible power may be able to overpower a better skilled person.... but the more skill an opponent has the more strength they must have to overcome. now somewhere between too small... and too big is a big grey area... where the combination of skill and strength alone can be adequate.. i.e. a person of average build has enough power to do damage... but the more skill he has the more damage he causes... that can go either way. I am a firm believer that is people are within 20-30 pounds of each other then skill alone will be the determining factor most times. as the weight difference gets greater, the smaller fighter is at such a disadvantage that his skill must be at such a high level compared to the stronger opponent that may outweigh him by 30, 40, 50 pounds or more... the greater the weight difference the greater the skill needed to overcome.. now at some point, the human body just doesnt gain by more weight and strength and actually becomes a negative.. what this weight is i dont know. For a 5 foot man it will be alot less then for a 7 foot man. I am also a firm believer that a very good martial artist will be able to defeat a truely exceptional martial artist if the weight and strength advantage is on his side.. I have often wondered what it would be like to see Bruce Lee fight some of the 250 pound powerhouse no holds barred fighters of today. Hell I have often wondered how i would fair in a sparring match with Bruce Lee.... I am 6 foot 3 inches and 225 pounds. I do not doubt that Bruce Lee had more skill then I have, But I also know that my strength is much greater then his was or ever could have been. anyways.... the only way to actually prove this theory one way or another is through hundreds of thousands of closely monitored fights... and sicne i doubt that will ever happen... I think this will always be a topic for debate.
wing chun kuen man Posted June 25, 2004 Posted June 25, 2004 Lucky Boxer, I think that there comes a time that even the level of power becomes less relevant. Lets say you have the power to kill someone with one punch, hitting them anywhere in the torso. Then one day you have to fight someone who has twice your punching power. At this point power becomes less relevant, and what gains importance is skill and speed, after all he can´t kill you twice. This means that the first one to get through will win. Lets take your example with Bruce Lee. Your strenght might be greater than him but remember that he was also known for his power - as well as speed, skill and immense knowledge. This means if he got through to you (or any bigger NHB opponent ), it would most probably mean lights out. Who would have more chance in getting through? The quicker and more skilled fighter, i.e. Bruce Lee. In sparring, this could be a knock out punch and in no holds barred it might be a punch/chop to the neck or throat - a very common " finishing " technique in Wing Chun. I am just speculating based on my logic and knowledge. In my opinion it is a likely scenario. Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one?
White Warlock Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Excellent points Lucky. Continued a tangential, but nonetheless relevant, discussion here - http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=171902#171902 "When you are able to take the keys from my hand, you will be ready to drive." - Shaolin DMV TestIntro
SevenStar Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I think that there comes a time that even the level of power becomes less relevant. Lets say you have the power to kill someone with one punch, hitting them anywhere in the torso. Then one day you have to fight someone who has twice your punching power. At this point power becomes less relevant, and what gains importance is skill and speed, after all he can´t kill you twice. This means that the first one to get through will win. But realistically, how likely is that to happen? Looking from a realism standpoint, you can't disount power THAT easily. Here's a more realistic scenario - guy A is a martial artist of many years, is quite fast, but not incredibly strong. Guy B is a college football player, extremely strong and extremely explosive. Guy B is used to contact - guy A needs to be able to hit him HARD. There are indeed times when power becomes less relevant, but not as extreme as you mentioned Lets take your example with Bruce Lee. Your strenght might be greater than him but remember that he was also known for his power - as well as speed, skill and immense knowledge. This means if he got through to you (or any bigger NHB opponent ), it would most probably mean lights out. Who would have more chance in getting through? The quicker and more skilled fighter, i.e. Bruce Lee. In sparring, this could be a knock out punch and in no holds barred it might be a punch/chop to the neck or throat - a very common " finishing " technique in Wing Chun. I am just speculating based on my logic and knowledge. In my opinion it is a likely scenario. then why have weight classes? as skilled as de la hoya and many other lighter weights are, tyson, lewis, holyfield, etc. would knock them out cold.
markusan Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I agree with Lucky. There's no doubt you have to work harder and smarter against a bigger opponent. And if thay have more muscle mass they are much harder to hurt.
wing chun kuen man Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 No one is denying that you have to work harder and smarter against a bigger opponent, after all such an opponent has an "inbuilt" advantage. I was merely giving an EXAMPLE of a situation where the level of power decreases in relevance. It was an extreme example for the purpose of making the point I was trying to make. SevenStar, unfortunately the example that you give is more realistic today, because nowadays you do have many martial artists like your guy A that after "many years" of practice have only mastered relative speed in techniques but low power level in their delivery, i.e. pretty(ineffective) and flashy techniques. In our school many years of practice mean high speed and high power, that means that the fight is finished when you get through- and we know that any martial art system that is correctly practiced will give you those two elements after MANY years of practice. I don´t think that there are martial arts that only aim to give you one or the other after long term practice, because one is not relevant without the other - unless one is practicing extremely sport oriented and point scorring non-contact arts, which I personally don´t regard as MA´s. What I am trying to say is that a real martial artist with many years of training under his belt will have enough power to hurt his assailant regardless of size, otherwise his training was in vain. The Bruce Lee example was raised by LuckyBoxer and I gave him my likely scenario. However, believe it or not in the old days in many parts of the far east weight classes did not exist in combat. I have mentioned this in another thread. Some years ago I trained Shotokan under a great japanese 7th dan sensei and one day after class he made some very interesting comments to me, they included "karate has become weak in modern times....." and "in the old days we did not have weight classes, this is a western concept" . This makes sense because in the old days martial arts were practiced to prepare one for real fighting and in the street/battle field level there are no weight classes. Could it be that weight classes reflect the fall in the standards of martial arts and are a way of compensating for this phenomenon (the long term effect of Mcdojos)? As far as western boxing is concerned may be weight classes are needed because the limitations and rules make size matter more. Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one?
Luckykboxer Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 well in regards to Bruce Lee.. Once again you are talking about one of the arguably best martial artists of modern times. I think you are overestimating his power though. I dont ever recall seeing or reading of any fights he was involved in that he was able to knock out an opponent with 1 punch. I have however read of many fights the won decisively with many many punches. Also, I agree with your senseis commen that MArtial Arts has grown weak in modern times. As Martial Arts has become commercialized, and instructors depend on it to support themselves and thier families, intructors have realized 2 things. 1st - It is possible to have the strongest, toughest, most spectacular martial arts school around, and all your students will be renowned... all 3 of them. 2nd - Its impossible to earn a living from 3 students, so to generate enough students to create a livable income, some things have to be sacraficed to keep students. Unfortunately this means the tougher things... because all of us know that the tougher things get, the more people will not do it. dang lost track fo time, will post more on this later..
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