ramymensa Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Also, just to clear things up, a ten pound weight is exactly ten pounds...unless you're measuring feathers. Even if you are measuring feathers it's ten pounds. A great package of feathers (volume incresed), but still 10 pounds if that's the desired weight World Shotokan Karate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battousai16 Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 not to hassle you luckyboxer, but how were you breaking said bones? i mean, i've seen on two seperate occasions what bullydog was talking about; where someone doesn't tap out and a wrist snaps (both happened with a c-lock). and i live in the dairy state he wasn't trying to break it, and i doubt he was putting over 10 pounds on it. it might have been because it was a training scenario and was thus easier to set everything, but... yeah, i just dunno. bones can be pretty weak, and once you get those angles down... can't say that i've ever broken anybodys bones before, though, so i can't say for sure. "I hear you can kill 200 men and play a mean six string at the same time..."-Six String Samurai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckykboxer Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 If it were unintentional, it would be safe to assume that you did not use an overly powerful strike to do so, eh? no that would be a wrong assumption. i broke an arm doing an arm bar that the person didnt tap, and didnt seem to be feeling it at all. I was wrenching the arm hard and thrusting my hips hard, it was a hell of alot more then ten pounds of pressure. when i broke the leg unintentionally it was a low leg kick in muay thai, and it was the ankle that broke on my opponent, once again it was so far past 10 pounds of pressure it isnt funny. I also unintentionally broke a leg by being pulled over an opponents leg by himself. As i weighed approx 225 pounds at the time, i think its safe to say it was mroe then ten pounds of pressure. I tell you what, instead of telling me im wrong in this, how about you show me some proof that it takes ten pounds of pressure to break a leg or arm of an average adult, and i will be the first person to apologize to you.i mean, i've seen on two seperate occasions what bullydog was talking about; where someone doesn't tap out and a wrist snaps (both happened with a c-lock). and i live in the dairy state he wasn't trying to break it, and i doubt he was putting over 10 pounds on it. it might have been because it was a training scenario and was thus easier to set everything maybe you dont realize how little ten pounds of pressure is.... in the scenario you are discussing i would be surprised if a 170 pound man isnt generating at least 20-50 pounds of pressure at least. Which is a huge difference from 10 pounds. Even if you are measuring feathers it's ten pounds. A great package of feathers (volume incresed), but still 10 pounds if that's the desired weight there is an old riddle about what weighs more... a ton of gold, or a ton of feathers..it has been misunderstood for a long time, let me explain... precious metals are weighed by ounces called troy ounces, but 12 troy ounces of gold equals 16 regular ounces of feathers, so they still weigh the same even though the feathers weigh more ounces then the gold does.. If you measure them by the same ounce scale then the numbers will be the same if that makes sense.. but yes a ton of feathers weighs the same as a ton of gold... the only difference would be that the type of ounces used to measure them differ due to the way each is calculated If you are confused in what i am talking about... the comment about feathers weighing differently originated from this... so is that ten pounds of force assuming that there is no resitance from the guys who's arm you're trying to break... kind of my point DM. i will let you put 10 pounds on my elbow any way you see fit, my knees as well, and i guarantee 100% unless you add alot of force to it they will not effect my limbs whatso ever. until you start getting about 20-25 pounds i wont be worried. Lets keep this a friendly debate at worst since we both post here and we both have a difference of opinion. I speak from practical experience. I am just asking you to substantiate your claims as they dont make sense to me. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 let's see ten pounds is approx 40 burgers (guess what size.....). so if i put 40 burgers on your arm, it might break? the thing with trying break a bone by striking at it is that there is a nice and soft and cushioning layer of meat and fat in the way. also, the limb moves and reacts. it might take ten pounds to snap a dry bone on the edge of a table but when it's someone's arm or leg, it's not the same. not even slightly.... post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullydog Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I find it just confusing that you all consider yourselves knowledgeable and studied Martial Artists, and you can't grasp this. I'm not saying you can take someone's arm and with the Indian rope burn move snap the limb off and beat him with it. It is more than obvious that you have not been to any form of joint lock seminars. I have studied in this art for more than twenty years. I'm trying to say nicely that if you come at me with some raging power, I'll make you look silly with some simple technique. THE MARTIAL ARTS WERE NOT DESIGNED BY PEOPLE THAT WERE BIG AND BURLY. Boxing and Football were. I seriously suggest you get to some grappling schools and do some training. That's not a slam, it's really a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 so when you say 'break' a limb, you actually mean dislocate at a joint....? once again, i ask, this is assuming that the guy isn't resisting, right? i'm trying to say nicely that if you come at me with some raging power, I'll make you look silly with some simple technique well, that's just it. we're not talking about raging power. we are talking about the three aspects involved with executing a technique of any sort. bare in mind that is also taking into account that we all have varying degrees of expertise in various subject matters. no one is saying that brute force is the way to go (although it does help as it gives you an edge of sorts....) as some others have pointed out you can strike accurately but without power behind it, what's it gonna do? the more intelligent among us has summised that what is more important depends on what you re doing and that sounds quite convincing to me. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullydog Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 OK, sorry to fly off the handle, however when people, no wait, Martial Artists, who have varying degrees of expertise in various subject matters can honestly say that between Accuracy, Speed and Power, they feel power is the most important. When I used "8 lbs to break a leg, 4 to break an arm" I was recalling what a man named Hidy Ochiai used in a class to describe the use of short leg strikes. Also, I figured that because I have been with several different schools since I left Ochiai's school in 1989, and have heard the same quote time and time again, and I also use it myself to describe how little it takes after you have softened the opponent up to finish him off, I figured that everyone on this board has heard the same. And so far only one of you has? My point is that when you say power is 1, accuracy is 2, or 3, then it would make sense that a person with more power will have to train less frequently and less hard than a person with less power. If you have two men at 6' tall, 220 lbs, can lift the same amount of weight, and has the same power, but one has taken any kind of MA lessons, and they get in a fight, who is your money on? Now we've taken the power out of the equation, it comes down to speed and accuracy. But what if one was way bigger than the other guy? But the other guy has taken MA for years. Does your answer change? What if you have two guys with the same MA skills, the same speed and the same accuracy, would power now play a part in the equation? SURE. How many of you would not fight a guy because he's twice as strong as you? Is anyone seeing my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granmasterchen Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 i still stick with my idea that power is the least important....still important but not the most. If i have the skill and technique or accuracy i can go for a throat shot with minimal strength need to take someone out, the second would be the speed if i am faster i can hit you anywhere in the neck with little strength and do damage, then finally power, if i have the first two skills already, i can hit you anywhere and do damage....i just feel that the skill is most important, then build the speed then the power.... and i have no problem fighting someone twice the size of me, even though that would be a very big and scary person.... also from my exp....not to say any of you are wrong...but it seems to me, that it takes more than 8 lbs to break a leg, i have taken some powerful shots and the tibia is a very strong bone...(tibia i think), for those low leg strikes.... but i do know that it takes 16 pounds of pressure to break an elbow......from a locked position.... 8 and 4 pounds of pressure isnt much.... i would say that the normal punch generates at least 30-40 lbs.....and the normal kick around 50 or more....(for experienced martial artists that have the skill and speed) ps. power is increased by speed.... my final point though, to disregard everything else, would be that my list goes skill, speed, then power. That which does not destroy me will only make me stronger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta1 Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 I've heard the @7 lbs quote many times, but I allways assumed it was to destroy a joint of an unresisting limb in an anatomically weak position and useing the proper angles and weapon. The problem with doing this in real life is that things are seldom so perfect. Opponents resist, and they move, and you don't pull off the perfect strike. Also, one of the reasons we take a stance is to structure those limbs in anatomically strong configurations, and we train to move so as to offer the least opportunity to attack a weak joint. I'll generally go with the >10# group. As for which is more important in joint locks, I think accuracy. If you get your angles or position wrong, you do no good and are set up to be countered. Speed would be next because if too slow, he'll counter before you apply. Freedom isn't free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckykboxer Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 oh i have heard the quote, and i straight out say its dead wrong. And i invite anyone at anytime to prove me wrong. i will put my leg and arm in a maching and let you put 8 or 4 pounds of pressure as you say. just because i say acid rain will kill you in 2 minutes doesnt mean its true. it means its an urban legend that people honestly believe. can arms and legs be broken? yes. does it take brute force? no. as far as your scenarios Bully how about these.... a 90 pound woman with training is stuck in a corner against a 250 pound man who is powerful but has no training. where is your money? If you say the woman then your not only naive but you refuse to go off of logic. or how about an 8 year old kid who weighs 50 pounds but knows the technique like mad against the man? what you say? that isnt fair? ummm no the little guy has more speed and accuracy, its just the power is overwhelming. I have said from the begining that all three matter and that any of the three can be the strongest and that person is still extremely successful. there comes a point when you have diminishing returns.... meaning that power or accuracy or speed no longer give you any more edge then you already have. there is also a point of pointlessness.. meaning that power or accuracy or speed that is not to a certain level will not do you any good, and will only hurt you. in between these points is where martial artists for the most part will rely on. you can be the fastest most acurate person it he world and with no power you are a laughing stock, and you are no threat to anyone. you can be the most powerful and acurate person in the world, but with no speed you are a laughing stock. you can be the quickest and strongest person in the world but with no acuracy you are a laughing stock. the truth is that all of these rely equally on each other being at certain levels. now if any of these are subpar the other two have to make up for it, and visa versa.THE MARTIAL ARTS WERE NOT DESIGNED BY PEOPLE THAT WERE BIG AND BURLY.so tell me that bruce lee, against someone my size with bruce lees accuracy and speed wouldnt win? LOL I see your points Bullydog and i completely disagree with them. I think you are trying to narrow your view to fit your bodytype, and i think your failing to see the entire picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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