Don't understand why faith is placed in noncontact arts

[TangSooGuy]

Range of motion and point of reference- when you train to lightly tap or just miss, you are training a point of reference for launching attacks, typically out farther so as not to hurt your partner and so the judges can see your strikes. At full extension/full range of motion, if you don't move this point of reference in closer, you cannot strike into your target enough to do the dammage you need to do. Some people are able to make this adjustment under pressure without training for it, but most are not. The skills are there, but they are not effectively used.

 

Delta1 and WW, excellent points to support your ideas on this issue.

 

However, I keep reading things like "some are able to adjust, but most are not." This is the part that keeps tripping me up. How is this qualitative analysis conclusion arrived at? Even if some people have witnessed this first hand, how is the conclusion arrived at that this applies to "most" people, and not just the few that were 'observed'?

 

Maybe I am in the minority, but myself and the others I spar against find that light contact training takes an extreme amount of control and thought, and there have been many times where we've had slips in control and someone ends up getting hit pretty hard. That's when we have to re-focus and concentration back to "light contact".

 

Just going from my own personal experience, the natural tendency is to not pull my punches or kicks. Either I'm "different", or the whole idea that training light contact causes bad habits is somewhat flawed. So when I read the "most" people that train light contact cannot adjust to real life, I can't help but wonder what pool of data this is coming from.

 

Some have talked about "facts" to support this, but I've yet to see any. Only theories.

 

I have to say I agree with you. the tendency is not to pull punches and kicks, and it actually takes conscious effort to not hit someone. In fact, it happened to me this weekend. My friend and fellow instructor were demonstrating free-flowing sparring, basically where techniques are thrown at one another non-stop, full poweer, but under conrol. Well, i got off-balanced and took a shot to the ribs.

 

That was Saturday. It's now Tuesday, and it still hurts...

[delta1]

...in my ever (never?) so humble opinion.

 

It is anectdotal- just my opinion.

...even the ones who can automatically adjust would, I think, do even better with training.

 

I think this because I've seen and talked to no contact martial artists who've been in fights. Some won, some lost, all thought they could have done better if they'd trained with contact.

 

Also, I've trained people for variouse high stress jobs, and worked with some of them in those jobs. I am a firm believer that you will react as you've trained when under severe stress. Those points of reference and habbits will usually assert themselves- including pulling strikes and fighting at distance.

 

I've also fought many point sparers with light or even no contact. Many of them were technically better martial artists than me, some of them by far. But, invariably, once I got in close, I owned them- and again, this is light or no contact. The only exceptions have been those that also do contact fighting.

 

And last, I've experienced it when running techniques. Time and again, I learn a technique cold, then fall apart when we up the level of force. Until you can perform a technique, including adjustments and spontaneouse modification or flow between techniques when things go wrong, under full force, you don't know that technique. When the level of force and contact increases, things are just not the same.

 

I'm not saying that what you or anyone else does is worthless, or even less. But I am saying that if you want it to work in a real fight, you would do better to train it that way before the fact than to hope you can alter your strategy and skills when under severe stress. And sevenstar is right, under stress you tend to go on automatic, which is not opinion but proven and widely accepted fact.

[Shawn]

Before I comment, let me clear something up. 99% of people who say they do full contact are full of it!!!! A lot of people confuse FULL contact with a HEAVY contact sport. If you don't hit full force to the face, neck, joints, throat.... if you don't pull hair, do eye gouges, groin kicks.... if you don't put on arm bars, wrist locks etc with the intent to snap.... if you don't do any of the above, YOU DO NOT DO FULL CONTACT! Many people who do heavy contact arts like to boost their ego's by saying they do full contact.... it's rubish in most cases! There are VERY VERY FEW schools that teach full contact simply because they cannot retain students because they always are injured/incapacitated, not to mention the legal implications. So.... let's assume that what was meant by this post is HEAVY CONTACT ARTS.

 

Now... I think there is a certain argument that you will fight as you train. If you train hard and learn to take a certain amount of pain, you will be better in the street. Having said that, it is important to remember what it is we are training for. For some people, they are not in it to be a meat head. In fact, there should be nearly NO CIRCUMSTANCES where you should need to fight as a true martial artist is humble enough to explore the alternatives. But also on another point, the shaolin monks did not train with any contact... how is it they revolutionalised combat and became one of the best forces the world has ever seen?

[Dijita]

Yeah, thanks for clarifing the difference between full and heavy contact, because I'm sure everyone thought we were just killing each other.

 

Anyways, I liked your statement about a true martial artists exploring other alternatives. I agree with you fully, and it's the reason that I don't really take martial arts for the reasons of self defense.

[DLopez]

Agreed, Shawn, thanks! That really clears up a lot.

[delta1]

There are VERY VERY FEW schools that teach full contact simply because they cannot retain students because they always are injured/incapacitated, not to mention the legal implications.

 

I agree that the term 'heavy contact' better describes it. But there are no schools that teach 'full contact' by your definition (except those run by Al Queda or the N. Koreans, maybe).

... I think there is a certain argument that you will fight as you train. If you train hard and learn to take a certain amount of pain, you will be better in the street.

 

Pain is not the only, or even the most important factor you have to learn to deal with. Go back and re-read.

Having said that, it is important to remember what it is we are training for. For some people, they are not in it to be a meat head. In fact, there should be nearly NO CIRCUMSTANCES where you should need to fight as a true martial artist is humble enough to explore the alternatives.

 

I agree, and have said many times, that everyone doesn't take martial arts to learn fighting or self defense. As long as they are getting what they want out of it, that's fine. And I never said that no contact is worthless for self defense purposes. I have said, and stand by it, that if you want it to work in self defense you are far better off to train with force and with contact. But both are controlled. I've also said before that no one needs to train to be injured.

 

I disagree that there are no circumstances where you should have to fight. There are many times when you would have to fight, regardless whether you are willing to look at other options or even just back down. Sadly, not every aggressor will let you walk away, and often they attack with little or no warning. And what they want, you may not be willing to give up- your life, your family, your honor (and don't give me any PC * about honor not being worth fighting for. Only those with none espouse that creed).

But also on another point, the shaolin monks did not train with any contact... how is it they revolutionalised combat and became one of the best forces the world has ever seen?

 

I'd be interested to know where you got that the Shaolin Monks never trained with contact. As for their being the best, maybe at their time and place in history. But the best ever seen... ?

 

I see you do, or did, AKKS Kenpo. Did your school practice the techniques under hard force? If so, did you have to make adjustments as the force increased? If not, go back and try Alternating Maces off a push that hits you with the intent of blasting you back onto your butt. Try any of the techs for a straight punch in close. Let's pick Dance of Death, since it is for a trailing hand strike, which means that you have a little more time to react than with a lead hand jab. Even that trailing hand is going to come at you incredably fast from in close. And your block will have to come across your body more to pick it up. But you'll also see that the 'block' checks his weapon back to his body better. And along with your knee check and block rocking him back, you can get a shoulder into him and really rock him back onto his heels. The rest of the technique just sort of falls into place. But you'll never know that, or do it for real, if you don't train it that way. And you will never catch yourself under a full force push, let alone use the ammount of control necessary for Alternating Maces to work, if you havn't done it under full force many, many times.

[Fat Donkey]

That was an awesome clarification and it brings up a point I'd like to reiterate. I think the HEAVY contact sports are better because u don't practice or use lethal techniques. In my experience most street confrontations involve the drunken meatheads out at the bars. My main fear is not getting killed or beat up but of going to jail or being sued when I am forced into a physical confrontation. For instance if I actually used and connected with the spear hand strike to the throat I learned in shotokan then I would probably kill or maim my opponent. But if I use my punching, kicking or knees I learned in MT then I would probably just knock him down or out. Also I know how to protect myself, I know not to panic and I know when to stop because I practice this in the ring on a daily basis.Opinions

[delta1]

Opinions

 

Just because you learned a spear hand to the throat, doesn't mean you have to use it. Shotokan also taught you how to punch him in the nose and to kick him in non lethal ways. It is about having options, not just about killing or maiming. True enough that most fights do not justify the use of deadly force. But, in the few that do, your spear hand might be a good thing to know. And when faced with multiple opponents, it might be good to know how to turn that kick to the legs into a shot that takes out a knee (and there are many ways to do this that are not obviouse), thus taking one opponent out of the fight. Sport is sport. Hard contact sports are good training, but not the ultimate training for reality. And, besides that, you MT guys wear funnt shorts!

[Fat Donkey]

U should see what we wear under the shorts But is it not the closest thing for preparing for real life situations? as opposed to drills with partners etc.

[delta1]

U should see what we wear under the shorts

 

Ooohhhhh! I don't even want to THINK about that!

But is it not the closest thing for preparing for real life situations? as opposed to drills with partners etc.

 

If all we did was drills, you'd have a point to go with those shorts! But, no, it isn't the closest thing to real life. I'd say some of the dirty, gritty, hard hiting, short adrenal stress reality courses are the closest.